After consultation with the BHG, we have come to the conclusion that the bottlenose gunship is too weak for its intended purpose
The 4 forward, 6 back setup it currently has is completely contradictory to the rest of the line, where all fire forwards, less in other directions. That is the primary strength/purpose of hunter ships.
I am suggesting that the 2 rear only turrents are loosened up so that 1 can fire in each red area shown in the pictures below, and 2 of the forward turrents are changed to be front and side only, not rear firing to compensate.

While it is not quite all forward shooting, as it is fairly agile, you could have 5 turrents on the target if they move off to the side or are turning instead of 4. The gunship is specifically designed to combat fighters and bombers, but it struggles against 2 bombers when really it should take 3-4 to take it down.

The red area is where the guns could fire on either side



or this



I am a bit unsure about the concave/convex direction that the turrent would be able to turn in, so i inculded both, its one or the other.

IMO, drop it down to a transport shield instead of a gunboat shield, and let all 6 turrets fire forward, but only 2 or 4 backwards.

I agree.

currently it's too manuverable for that to happen, hence the suggestion for a weakened shield. Afterall, it's only 40k difference in shield strength.

I agree. They're too dang maneuverable as it is.

Theres different recharge times on the transport shields. It may only be 40k less, but it has a much higher recharge time I think
Someone may need to post the numbers, times, etc

Fair enough. It's just that I could really use that 40k

According to FLStat, every last shield, other than the Transport 50k (9), and Civilian Transport Shield (35k, 6), has an off rebuild time of 12.

This thread is somewhat surprising to me as my experience with that ship has been that it's a total murder wagon.

Might I suggest that you go with your other gunboat if you're looking for a ship that fills the traditional role?

The BH bunship is a hunter killer. Probably not something I would want to take into a group fight nor something I would ever bring out to hunt another gunboat... But for the purpose of tracking down small groups/lone bombers/fighters? Absolutely evil. With the proper setup it works more like a extremely heavy bomber/VHF.

The current vessel fills its mission very well. It's a unique ship and one which really rewards players who have a lot of twitch skill. Players who rely more on spray and pray coupled with vessel endurance to slug their way through battles wont fare very well in it however... Which certainly wont be aided to any degree with a substantial shield nerf.

As the difference between the gunboat and transport shields are extremely vast indeed.

1 problem with that. against small groups it fails epically. and use it to hunt lone bombers and guess what happens? whining. more whining.

give it some proper firepower and it might actually be able to fufill its purpose as a bomber killer. seeing as 1 snac can take it out if it has a UAU 8.

right now it's very good at running away like a little girl. but when it has to fight, especially against numbers, it's in big, big trouble.

bh gunship is primary constructed against fighters/bombers. against them it is now better as good... (when you dodge bombers have really problem to hit you with guns... )

against gunboats, you have orca.
butstill with good setup you can kill all enemy gunboats... (order,corsair,hessian,outcast...)
so where is the problem?

again the syndrom, give us better better better?...

I remember one sweep with pulses, then rear view and razor em.


Got me some tasty kills with that beast...


But it is ignored due to it's inability to shoot forwards...

I have only the best experience with the BH GS, it's a great ship. Quality stuff... I'm sure it doesn't need the buff. It's strong enough as it is.

When these cries appeared the last time, it took just a small group of decent pilots to fly it for a while before it turned into "nerf the BH GS!". Imagine if the same group went out with the buffed GS in their hands...

I will accept that we buff the GS once someone defeat me in a 1 vs 1 with any ship up to gunboats.

This ship is just pure evil, if you don't feel it is, that mean you use it wrong.
Just a tip : rear view is the key

Anyone encountered GS which is going in circles evasing, dodging and shooting at the same time? Of course you haven't if you make such posts.

The ship is pure evil. Just learn to fly it right. Which is some tactic you need to have theorical knowlendge about.

I'll let you into a little secret. he was cheating.

Wait what? The Bottlenose is 'weak'?

It's the only Gunboat I'm afraid of...

What exactly makes it weak?


Newsflash, every gunboat has trouble taking down 2 bombers. A single Gunship taking down 3-4 bombers is ridiculous. No ship should be that powerful. A single Gunship can take down 3-4 bombers providing the pilot has a high skill level, but for it to be a regular occurrence of pilots over a multitude of skill levels will make this ship overly abused.

That one you are talking about was cheating. Some stuff with camera .inis. Normally, flying in rear view is a deathtrap, since it starts flying straight after 2-4 seconds.

I have mixed opinions on the gunship. I'm both flying it and fighting it. I think it has good survivalability, but not enough firepower. The problem might be in ordinary BHG turrets. They have like 30m/s more speed than most average GB turrets, for 50 less damage per shot. In a gunboat, hell even in a fighter, you just won't notice the 30m/s difference if you don't see the stats on paper. If you mount one missile firing forward, you have only 3 BHG turrets forward. Bad.

You can use it as a snipeboat, with razors and pulses, but not everyone aims good enough and not everyone likes that style of fighting. If you fight decent pilots who can dodge, or fight in laggy environment, you won't stand any chance with that loadout either. Especially if you fight Praetorians, which basically look like this from the front and back:

|
(o-----()-----o)
|

The proposed idea isn't bad, but I would give the turrets a bit smaller firing arc. Like, nearly around the edges of the screen. Or second idea, give the turrets a bit more damage.



Every gunboat, yes. But BH GS is supposed to fight only fighters and bombers, but fails at it. Now it has problems with 2 decent bomber pilots. It should be able to take them out more easily than other gunboats, as a tradeoff for inability to fight other gunboats properly. Which depends again on loadout and skill, but BH GS vs average gunboat ends up usually very badly for the BH GS.

Single gunship taking out 3 or more bombers at once? I didn't see that happen, ever. Oh well, once, but it was the cheating guy, so it doesn't count right? Maybe if the bombers were totally stupid, it would be possible, but 3, or even 2 skilled bomber pilots can quite easily take out the BH GS flown by a pilot of roughly the same skill. Again, depending on loadout, he could get a lucky razor instakill on one of them.

Neither have I. But that's what the OP wants. A pair of Gunships should be able to take out 3-4 bombers but not a single Gunship. That just isn't right. No other ship in the game is really balanced to kill 3-4 other ships by it's self, it is possible but only with a very good pilot.

I guess I should make Jepp Lutz return from his retirement?

You might or might not know, but... the part of his story where he owns 3 pirate falcatas in the Badlands is hard to forget. One of them being Polaris, at that. He even earned a nice little chunk of money.

The trick of surviving such fights is to strafe at the right moment, and deliver as much hurt as you can to the bomber right when it is trying to align the antimatter cannon.


Yeah, I'm actually threatening to do just that.
Sometimes it's the skill that matters in general. Though, some people might be extremely great at flying certain ships, because it's their specialty.

I used to have a B Gunship and it was anti-bomber/fighter, and i have taken out 3 hacker bombers, although i have to admit they weren't that great pilots. My setup was a secret but now.. i will reveal it.....

3 cerbs, 1 razor 2 missle turrets. THERE I SAID IT! I also took out a lane hacker GS who was an anti-fighter. Although now i've switched to an Orca, just so i can take out gunboats with my uber anti-cap setup.... Sorry i won't be telling you that.

He wasnt. I know few more gunboat pilots who flies the same way. Mirroreye with oc gs. if anyone here encoutered him, he can take out 4 - 5 bombers alone.

It is alot how you use the ship. Some ships needs less skill to handle, other more. Like lets take up a gladi for example. To co-ordinate cd + mine + razor.. dodge and keep the shield down with pulses is quite a hard job in the same time.

So here is the BH gunship. You need to handle it in special way. Not try to overhelm someone with vast firepower. And that ship gots huge potencial.

I didnt explain this part properly, so I'll try again.
The gunship can only fight fighters and bombers properly, with the occasional gunboat, depending on setups. The idea is that it can take out 2 bombers after a bit of a fight. 3 bombers should kill it, losing perhaps 1 if the bottlenose gets a lucky shot in.
It was never the intention for it to be able to defeat 3-4 bombers, rather the other way round, 3 bombers killing the gunship after some fighting.



The firing arc is an example, distance to the edges of the screen would be part of the balance.



Again see the top part of my post, I have explained it a bit better.

With the risk of being called out for massive bias following the interesting developments between the Kusari and the BHG.

I think the Bottlenose is fine.
But I've also scanned some BHG gunships (recently of course) and they are using the wrong loadout.
I wont say what ones are right to use though.
But I mount the 'right' loadout on my indie core bottlenose.

Think about what Dusty said.

'rewards twitch skills'
'bad for spraying and relying on durability'

Of note, a while ago, Ench had a bottlenose. I saw about five or six kill messages three days in a row...

EDIT: I would be surprised if the bottlenose really couldn't take two bombers. With liberal use of strafing, the bombers will have to close in to a ridiculously close distance to fire their SN with accuracy to hit. This leaves them open to certain other weapons...

Yeah, Mirroreye... Actually a good name, considering it's more or less how the cheat works. It's plain camera.ini editing, I won't explain further.

Trust me, we were trying to fly around in circles in rear view while shooting, but it's just impossible due to game mechanics without cheating.

And yes, overwhelming with vast firepower when you dont have any firepower is stupid. We know that, so we don't do it. Now only thing what Gunship can do against 2 or more skilled bombers is dodge. Keeping one of them under fire gives the other one clear shot at you.

Of course, you can use sniping loadout. It's the only thing that really works. But what are BHG turrets for then? It just doesn't make sense you MUST use razors to be effective. Not everyone likes that style of playing, effective or not.

Before you start shouting "lrn2snipe" - I can do it quite well, but I just don't want to.

Is this not why the Orca exists? Though, Orcas arent really anti-fighter specialised gunboats...

Bottlenose : Sniper
Orca : Sprayer

I should point out that giving the Bottlenose even just one more turret forward will make it too strong (3BRs and 2 Infernos?), but taking away any agility it also has at the same time will immediately make it weaker than it is now.

Against two bombers, you can hit one and force it on the defensive as long as you have good spatial awareness (irony, space game). If you do, you can anticipate and dodge SN shots while still staying on target. Of course, theres an element of luck in this, but there always is...

Could give the Bottlenose some VHF or bomber weaponry though...

I can barely hit the Orca, let alone the bottlenose xD


Wouldn't be much use when you consider varying weapon speeds.

And if using Razors and stuff, 'sniping' isn't your style... then... use a different Gunboat? It's not like you're limited to using the Bottlenose as a BHG.

Exactly. I've used Orca before, and it's actually even worse against bombers, how it is supposed to be after all. If you can't hit it, something is wrong there. With inability to fight bombers well, you are stuck fighting other lonely gunboats, which just doesn't happen in the edge worlds like Omegas or Omicrons where Core operates the most.



It wouldn't be able to fire them all anyway I think. Now the powerplant disappears when fire sniping loadout already, 5 turrets would only affect ability to fight with normal turrets, which is what is needed I think. But I don't want 5 turrets forward either, the suggestion of the OP to give the 2 backward turrets very restricted forward fire arcs seems fine enough to me though.



That's how I'm trying to fly it. The BHG turrets have sad damage though. Before I manage to kill one of them, more bombers come and finish me off. Defense is okay, it's the firepower which isn't enough to do hit and run tactic on small groups of fighters/bombers. Before you manage to kill even one, more come.

I might go back to the sniping loadout, but it's good only against stupid guys who come too close.

How many times do I have to tell people "don't fix what ain't broke"?

It's fine. Joy to fly, and really not too painful to fight if you know your stuff.

@Tena
ok i give you a challenge.... try fly straight line without defending with a junker salvager and a uhm, corsair gunboat? Then count the secont it takes before 2 bombers to rape you..... a wild guess... uhm 10-20 (depending if they have nova-snac or not)



Really, 3 razors and liberty missile in front. 2 BHG turrets in the back.....instakill much?, yeah



If anything add 45 cargo OR 2k armour... really. ANY other gunboat can take atleast ONE nova torpedo given it has a armour upgrade of some sort....

Nova torpedo: 165000 hull

Original: 55000 x 3 = 165000
Adding cargo: 55000 x 3.3 = 181500
Adding armour: 57000 x 3 = 171000

I vote for Cargo as with my current cap 4 i need to remove my cap armour just to move my guns around... its annoying. REALLY annoying

Atleast now, one lucky nova-snac bomber cant get ya..... That is all the B'nose needs

Adding cargo space only rewards the players who can afford to buy armor. I honestly dont get why anyone should have to spend more money on an armor upgrade than they do on the ship itself.

Now, here's a funny comparison... a few months ago, when I had a junker salvage frigate (100k armor, 45k more than the bhg gunship - but it only has a transport shield, 100k vs 140k), and was using 5 zoner gb turrets, I took on four xeno fighters at once and killed 3 of them before dying.

The salvager is 5-6 times larger than the gunship, has far lower agility, and is much easier to hit, yet it did more against a swarm of fighters than my gunship can. That just doesnt seem right to me - yes, the gunship USED to be overpowered when it had a smaller model, larger powerplant, and 6 forward turrets, but I think it was nerfed a little too much with 4.85's updates.

Last night I participated in a fight between the liberty navy and joker's thugs. Joker had his outcast trident, with another trident backing him up, two rocs, and a falcata. Our side had my gunship (4 IMG gunboat turrets forward, uni 8 armor ugprade), an LABC, a guardian fighter, a roc bomber, and two liberty dreadnaughts.

Just trying to deal with two of the enemy bombers on me, I was getting torn to **** and couldnt do a thing about it. I was forced to spend 99% of my time and effort dodging enemy fire, and to low effect I might add, and there is simply no way that you can return enough fire to be effective in that situation with the gunship.

I still think that the gunship should have it's rear turrets removed, and gain one extra forward turret. 4 turrets, as evidenced by both this ship and by the original zoner gunboat, is simply not enough - even 5 is low, but with the ship's manuverability that isnt too much of an issue.

I do think something needs to be done about normal gunboat turrets, though. There's no reason at all that any ship should be more effective against fighters using heavy weaponry than it is with anti-fighter weaponry. The same issue plagues solaris turrets for all ship classes - have you ever seen ANYONE using solaris turrets on a gunboat? No, because the stupid things do less damage than any gunboat primaries and offer no advantages.

Normal gunboat turrets need a range increase, up to 1000 meters at least, from the current 800~ range on most of them. The gunship needs an additional forward turret, or a slight increase to armor.

agreed... we need more forward fire...... in some situations using rearview is suecide.... like in asteroid fields.....

We need a smaller ship..... really its good now, but its still too weak... it should be bossted a tiny bit... tiny tiny tiny bit like 5k armour and 50k more energy.... rear guns being able to fire forward

Razors and pulses for a bottlenose. Worked great on my old ZGB, should work even better on an even faster GS. The Orca should get the Basics and stuff.

I think I'll have to partially agree with Tenacity for once.

Most of the group fights you get in with the GS, you end up dodging like mad with no chance to fight back, since most attempts to do so end up badly. At least 2 decent bombers and you're screwed regardless of dodging or not.

Then there's the issue with ordinary GB turrets and GB Solarises. Ordinary ones offer quite a lot more DPS for only 100-150 m/s speed less and 4.0 refire. Solaris turrets offer worse damage, worse energy efficiency at slightly more speed and refire.

Ordinary turrets are just better than them, and "sniping" weaponry better than anything else, and even the most universal. Why?

If they are supposed to snipe small craft, shouldn't they be at least equally effective as ordinary turrets or solarises, so everyone can pick his style? Also, you don't really see BSs or cruiser with full pulse/BR loadouts. But Gunboats with only BR/pulse and sometimes the odd missile can be seen quite often.

Removing completely two turrets and adding one to front, or giving the rear turrets better firing arcs as suggested in the first post are the best ideas in my opinion.

Compared to what Tenacity has experienced, I think I've experienced something slighty different. (and I think that fight might have been three Dreadnoughts, but only one, the Oklahoma, joined in... if thats the right battle I remember)

I tested my gunship in combat alone against three tridentes. My wingman in his orca dropped out seconds before, with internet problems... but anyway. I was able to down one of the tridentes before I went down, with all three shooting. Two pulses, Two BRs. Yes, they were flying like complete morons, but I suspect so were the fighters that you encountered in your salvager, Tena. For example, two decent pilots in a VHF can take out any gunboat, especially one as big and slow as the salvager. Unfortunately, I define decent as Jihadjoe, Skyelius, Ench, Teschy... most of those who people consider a little better than decent.

I think that an extra turret forward on the BHG GS will make it a pwnship, more so than it is now. 2 Infernos, 3 BRs. Thats decent shieldkilling capability, (one inferno does not cut it against gunboat shields) and bomber/VHF instakill capacity, albeit at the cost of your entire power plant. That said, I wont know until I try, but Im pretty sure that'll be the case.

It would make the Orca obsolete for sure, unless that was given one or two extra gun slots (maybe in exchange for the forward gun...)

@Nighthawk: Who said any VHF or bomber weaponry slots would be in the same weapon group as the main gunboat guns? I'd personally like to be able to chase an enemy gunboat in my GS while firing, for like, no drain, 4 or 6 bomber/VHF guns.

The old gunship model - with 6 forward firing guns - was a real pleasure to fly, and I had no problems with it. When it got nerfed - and since then - I've tried. Lord knows I've tried. But I have to also agree with Tenacity on this one - and I've tried multiple loadouts.

Heck, I'm thinking the Orca has had a manuvering nerf as well lately.

Of course the old one was a pleasure to fly...

Same standard powerplant as every other gunboat.
The size of a barghest (no, thats not really an exaggeration).
Faster than it is now.
Mounting Cap 8's...

One of them could take out a cruiser. In fact, if you put in the old model, hitbox, gunslots and manoeverability, even with the smaller plant, it could probably solo everything up to a battlecruiser.

So of course you liked it ._.

Dunno about the Orca though, seemed fine to go against. Nothing bad or good about it...

Let's reach a compromise..

Bastet gets buffed powerplant, and the BHG Gunships gets buffed as well.

mcneo, three of the four xeno fighters I fought during the mentioned battle were XA, most of whom are above average pilots.

Allowing more forward arcs will not change the ship's effectiveness with heavy weapons, due to power requirements - but it will improve the gunship's effectiveness with normal turrets, which is what the ship needs right now. It's ridiculous that you have to use anti-cap weaponry on the gunship in order to kill fighters.

I too agree with Tenacity. you are simply forced to use the snipe setup to get any results. people say it becomes pwnsome then. but let me tell you: there are factors like lag, sucky aiming skills etc that make sniping no real alternative.

I for one am a ****ty snipe shot. thus my gs is instantly useless. I tried the meanest gb turrets I could mount within rp (4 zoner ones) and the effectiveness vs bombers and fighters? suffiice to say I might as well had ejected at the start of the fight and use my handgun while floating around in a spacesuit.

it can't kill crap with turrets. let alone with those piece of crap BHG turrets that suck left right, top and bottom..

basically all you can do is hope that you are not being targetted while desperatly trying to do some damage, and failing utterly. and if you do get targeted, all you can do is run like a little girl and try to dodge. returning fire is impossible, and even if you were to hit something it does no good whatsoever.

in 4.84 it was good enough to kill pretty much everything. it was too good, in fact. right now, it's good at running away. and with 2 proper bombers on you, even that will not succeed.

in fleet battles you die within 40 seconds when enemy gbs or 2 or 3 bombers start working on you.

for a supposed bomber killer, it fails epically if you have no godlike razor aim.

Here's an idea, make a new power core for it, and make all 6 guns fire forward.

It seems the biggest fear with adding additional forward hardpoints is that it will make sniping more effective, and increase the ship's anti-cap capability due to being able to mount more forward pulse turrets and razor turrets.

Well, the bhg gunship currently has a 400,000 power core, with 40,000 power regen. How about we drop it to a 300,000 power core, with slightly higher regen - 50,000 or 60,000. This prevents it from ever firing 3 razors at once, it would be able to fire two at most, removing it's ability to snipe insta-kill bombers, and overall removing the need to use heavy anticap weaponry to be effective.

With that setup, you'd be able to fire 6 forward gunboat 'normal' turrets, making it more effective in it's role of anti fighter/bomber use, and actually reducing it's ability to fight other capships. That makes all sides happy, does it not?

I really like that idea. but it does not make everyone happy. some folks like to snipe in their bottlenose. they will lose their ista-kill bomber setup.

Tough really. You can't please everyone.

The Bottlenose is an anti-snubfighter platform. This would specialize it more toward that end.

They can still use a sniping setup, but it will only instakill light bombers and fighters, it'll take more than one razor volley against medium and heavy bombers since you can only fire two razors at a time.

that's a bit harsh...

although you do have a point in saying that it would better fit its role...




yeah, but its main targets are tank-like bombers. Preatorians, Sekmets, Barghests, Falactas. all heavy bombers that will not die to a twin-razor.

Something needs to be changed if the anti capital weapons are the most effective against smaller ships.

Tena's lower power, higher regen, more guns idea sounds ok

Even against those, with two pulses, two razors, and two other weapons (with the extra forward turrets, say normal turrets or cerberus), you'd be fine. The enemy just gets a few chances to regenerate hull/shields like it should, whereas right now they get no chance at all.

Being able to instakill a bomber, regardless of how heavy it is, is no less frustrating to the bomber pilot than it is for a nova torpedo to be able to instakill the gunship. As suggested earlier, a slight increase to cargo space allowing the use of a 3.3 armor upgrade (cap 5) would solve that problem as well, preventing instakills on -either- target.

I'm not a fan of any weapon setup which prevents the enemy from fighting back due to a one shot kill.

My view here;

-Assuming the 300k plant is made and used...

2 infs and 2 BRs is already more than enough to munch enemy gunboats (unless they have missiles, in which case things get very tricky for the GS). 3 Infernos and 2 BRs? Suddenly you have a support ship to shoot down cruisers too (with, obviously, support). There really is no need for an Orca if it only takes longer to shoot down gunboats whilst retaining the ability to insta fighters with monotonous regularity.

The plant will also recharge in 5-8 seconds from empty. Daymn, thats a lot of energy. Like a medium or heavy gunboat, except without the top capacity.

-Assuming that the 300k isnt used and it remains with its 400k plant...

Well, you can think what you like as is your right to do so, no one will stop you. But 3 BRs and 2 Infernos... yes please. Aim is my main asset, my sniper aim trained every time I log into my LN guardian which has full 2.00 weapons (4 codes, 2 hammers). You think the energy cost is going to stop me, or people like me who also have aim as their main asset?

-About the armour.

If a gunboat gets hit by a nova torpedo, it probably deserved it. The Kusari gunboat in update one got insta'd by a nova torp, even a cap 8 because of borked resistances. No one knew about it until I tested it with Enko. How rare is a nova user, and how much rarer is it that someone knows how to use them?

That said, I dont understand why people are prevented from spending 900 mil on their gunship. I say, if they really want, sure, why not. No skin off my nose. You're 900 mil short whereas im about 100 mil short (say, a cap 5) and if you're more money than sense, you'll still die just the same.

Again... it has HUGE drawbacks with 300k core...

Before my tri-razor i used 4x GB Cerbs and 2 Liberty missiles....

Liberty missiles use less energy but more damage then basic missiles..... With duo missiles i could missile spam anyone to hell.... even if the cerbs failed i still had a chance if i were forced to dodge like made because of bombers/VHF's.....

Really... i remember the old ZGB..... those mines were a life saver against fighters and bombers lining their snac up from behind....

BUT if we fuse the current ideas.. including mine we get:

B'nose Gunship
- 55000 armour

- 5 forward firing guns (3 of them can fire to the rear)

- "normal" model and hitbox

- 300 000 energy core with 60k/s regen (maybe 350k energy with 50k/s regen. Then we can just barely tri-razor)

- Mine dropper

- increased cargo (350?)

- Countermeasures

- Cruise Disruptor


This should be an "agreeable" solution right?.....
With 350k energy (tri razor takes 345k) we can snipe... but were well.... paralyzed..... for a while as energy almost is fully depleted....

Can we all agree on this???

(Oh and sorry for the "bad" language..... just the only word that fit in right there)

2 infs and 2 BRs is enough to munch stupid gunboats maybe. Any decent GB pilot is able to kill a GS easily 1v1.

Don't forget that Orca has it's forward gun, and fighters getting insta'd by a GS deserve it, I mean any VHF is able to dodge BRs, stay at safe distance and hit the GS effectively.

Only problem I see is the regen, 60k seems too much, 50k would be maybe fine - it would need to be tested.



I bet no one will give it 5 turrets and leave everything else as it is, there always has to be some tradeoff.