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+--- Thread: Admin Decision on the Banned Six (/showthread.php?tid=141430)
RE: Admin Decision on the Banned Six - Flash™ - 07-26-2016
(07-26-2016, 05:56 PM)Alley Wrote: @Skype stuff, can't be bothered to write it properly
[18:52:46] alley: some people believe because skype has been taken into account for a single instance that wasn't even processed under the ruleset that every bit of skype stuff is now ground for evidence
[18:53:10] alley: if you think about it for 10 seconds you easily realize it's not
It was an exceptional processing, don't expect skype to be the new meta.
What gives you the right to process Skype logs as evidence towards a permanent ban, branding them as malicious, whilst meanwhile you act maliciously to other forum users via Skype PM, for example making racist comments directly towards Lyth?
Ah but wait, it was "exceptional processing". You can continue to get away with being as nasty to other forum members over Skype as much as you want because you're not in the crosshairs, right?
RE: Admin Decision on the Banned Six - Vendetta - 07-26-2016
(07-26-2016, 10:36 PM)Flash™ Wrote:(07-26-2016, 05:56 PM)Alley Wrote: @Skype stuff, can't be bothered to write it properly
[18:52:46] alley: some people believe because skype has been taken into account for a single instance that wasn't even processed under the ruleset that every bit of skype stuff is now ground for evidence
[18:53:10] alley: if you think about it for 10 seconds you easily realize it's not
It was an exceptional processing, don't expect skype to be the new meta.
What gives you the right to process Skype logs as evidence towards a permanent ban, branding them as malicious, whilst meanwhile you act maliciously to other forum users via Skype PM, for example making racist comments directly towards Lyth?
Ah but wait, it was "exceptional processing". You can continue to get away with being as nasty to other forum members over Skype as you want because you're not in the crosshairs, right?
There is and always has been extreme cases where Skype evidence was brought to the table to be evaluated. While it isn't frequently admissible as evidence, there are specific points which are discussed heavily and weighed in upon. While Skype might be outside the community, if the evidence points to malicious actions or plans of such, it involves the community health in general. If it's just a bad attitude, then there's no reason it should be included. It's situational based, not broad swept and collected to show they're not nice.
RE: Admin Decision on the Banned Six - Flash™ - 07-26-2016
(07-26-2016, 10:40 PM)Vendetta Wrote:(07-26-2016, 10:36 PM)Flash™ Wrote:(07-26-2016, 05:56 PM)Alley Wrote: @Skype stuff, can't be bothered to write it properly
[18:52:46] alley: some people believe because skype has been taken into account for a single instance that wasn't even processed under the ruleset that every bit of skype stuff is now ground for evidence
[18:53:10] alley: if you think about it for 10 seconds you easily realize it's not
It was an exceptional processing, don't expect skype to be the new meta.
What gives you the right to process Skype logs as evidence towards a permanent ban, branding them as malicious, whilst meanwhile you act maliciously to other forum users via Skype PM, for example making racist comments directly towards Lyth?
Ah but wait, it was "exceptional processing". You can continue to get away with being as nasty to other forum members over Skype as you want because you're not in the crosshairs, right?
There is and always has been extreme cases where Skype evidence was brought to the table to be evaluated. While it isn't frequently admissible as evidence, there are specific points which are discussed heavily and weighed in upon. While Skype might be outside the community, if the evidence points to malicious actions or plans of such, it involves the community health in general. If it's just a bad attitude, then there's no reason it should be included. It's situational based, not broad swept and collected to show they're not nice.
Understandable. Although you missed my point.
So you're saying that making fun of a banned member in a faction chat is completely fine? Is being racist towards the banned member via PMs also fine? Is talking with malicious intent and bragging about trolling another player, whilst generally displaying a poor attitude, fine? I'm talking about an official faction chat. You know what I'm talking about V. A chat that has about twenty members in; do you personally think that is okay? Twenty members get to see complete crap being said about that member. I don't think that is fine, and if Skype evidence is being used to permanently ban members, why isn't Alley banned yet? Why aren't other members of this community not banned yet?
This is a product of the flimsy manner we have been using Skype logs up to this point. If we use it for a case like Karst, why are we not applying it to all cases? Maliciousness is maliciousness. People shouldn't have a free pass to act horrible to others because it was "exceptional processing". If Skype enters the fray as evidence it either needs to be used in its entirety or not at all. Either way the manner in which it's been used is sporadic and misleading on the part of the Staff. And in alley's case - or any other community member's case - it's double standard.
Also on the subject of Lyth, as his evidence is not Skype based (and are extremely poor justifications for a 6 month ban) there isn't really any concrete basis for keeping him banned at all. I don't see why he can't be put on probation like the other 4, as his evidence was forum-based and not detrimental in the slightest.
RE: Admin Decision on the Banned Six - Laura C. - 07-26-2016
(07-26-2016, 10:40 PM)Vendetta Wrote:Karst´s ban was based mainly on bad attitude on skype, as far as I know. No malicious actions, just bad attitude towards people (who pissed him before that). I witnessed part of it myself and while it was annoying and something I criticized him heavily for myself, I have seen quite similar events (or even worse) in the past in various chats and no one was ever sanctioned for that.(07-26-2016, 10:36 PM)Flash™ Wrote:(07-26-2016, 05:56 PM)Alley Wrote: @Skype stuff, can't be bothered to write it properly
[18:52:46] alley: some people believe because skype has been taken into account for a single instance that wasn't even processed under the ruleset that every bit of skype stuff is now ground for evidence
[18:53:10] alley: if you think about it for 10 seconds you easily realize it's not
It was an exceptional processing, don't expect skype to be the new meta.
What gives you the right to process Skype logs as evidence towards a permanent ban, branding them as malicious, whilst meanwhile you act maliciously to other forum users via Skype PM, for example making racist comments directly towards Lyth?
Ah but wait, it was "exceptional processing". You can continue to get away with being as nasty to other forum members over Skype as you want because you're not in the crosshairs, right?
There is and always has been extreme cases where Skype evidence was brought to the table to be evaluated. While it isn't frequently admissible as evidence, there are specific points which are discussed heavily and weighed in upon. While Skype might be outside the community, if the evidence points to malicious actions or plans of such, it involves the community health in general. If it's just a bad attitude, then there's no reason it should be included. It's situational based, not broad swept and collected to show they're not nice.
So if The Sixban showed something, than that there are actually no limits when admins sees it fit, and thus anyone can be sanctioned and banned due to actions on skype or teamspeak and whatever other platforms. Everyone in the community should behave according to it for his own safety, otherwise he might find his name in the sanction section. Staff should stop claiming otherwise, because as history showed, "exceptional processing" can be used anytime.
EDIT: To the OP itself: I can only say that decision adminteam made didn´t fix harm it did to itself by far. Just to use myself as example (and I am definitely not the only one who feels this way), I used to defend adminteam and staff in general, because it is hard job with very little gratitude given back. I will no longer do that. I never believed in so called conspiracies and bias skype deals within adminteam and such. I lost my confidence regarding this.
Simply said, you lost credibility in eyes of many common players, really lot of it - and just for the record, I will repeat that it happened not because of what you did, but how you did it. And I doubt that current adminteam will be ever able to fix it completely. If I wouldn´t have such bond with RFP, I would likely be on Disco break right now, because during your fight with detrimental and toxic behaviour, you brought some of it yourself.
RE: Admin Decision on the Banned Six - Corile - 07-26-2016
You all should really think about abolishing the instance of "admins" and instead introduce some sort of representative/council system instead of this idiocy that's going on right now.
Oh, right, I forgot I should stop giving you legitimate advice. You wouldn't listen anyway.
Carry on.
RE: Admin Decision on the Banned Six - sindroms - 07-26-2016
Knowing that some people might call me out on this, I would argue that Skype -should- be treated the same way similar to that of a ingame group chat. There are many moments I can recall where stuff being said on Skype has lead to people being slapped.
Mind you, this means that the behavor expressed by a community member towards another community member on skype can result in a warning.
The reason for this is simple. Skype is an, unmistakable, huge part of Discovery Freelancer. The community here is very tightly knit. I do not really think that at any point a person should forget that, rules or not, they are responsible for their ingame and out of game conduct and what they say and what they do.
That is what an adult should be. Do not say things that you are not ready to take consequences for. This should be very known by EU members, who constantly see people facing charges due to hate speech online, especially public news sites in the comment sections.
There is a limit to what I think is acceptable to be used from skype and I am firm in my belief that such things should varrant a warning and nothing else. Certainly not something being used against another person in a sanction thread.
But regardless if that was the case or not, it is foolish to think that your skype messages should not represent your attitude towards Discovery and its members, only because it is not written on Discovery forums or ingame. It is just that it is very easy not to care if the people who pick up this information are the people you are expressing them against - and not the administration team who can terminate your presence on the site.
RE: Admin Decision on the Banned Six - Jinx - 07-26-2016
The very core idea of the community administration is to prevent it from tearing itself apart. Especially on the internet - people tend to be more stubborn, more extreme, more vulgar, - more outspoken and especially - MUCH more argumentative than in real life.
It is near impossible to write the rules in a way that they cover all instances of harming the community - and the more vague the rules are ... the larger the grey areas are.
Players on the other hand tend to explore those grey areas. Veterans in particular test the limits. (often unintentionally but sometimes intentionally...)
- How far can i go with "my" roleplay before someone takes offense?
- How much can i force other players to play by my rules until they complain?
- What does it take for the Admins to take notice?
Easy examples are of course the above examples like "what can i get away with in forum chat? What can i get away with in chats that are not the forum but closely related to Disco? What can i get away with in unrelated chats? How hateful, racist can i be until the excuse "i am just joking..." does not work anymore?"
Or the very simple case of "How much can i tax that fat cash cow no-name-newbie-trader and get away with?
It seems second nature to explore such limits.
The admins on the other hand need to consider the actions. And while i am anything but a fan of the Admin team - they need to ensure that such grey areas are monitored. (i really do not like how you guys are selected - and how there is hardly any mechanism to make you adhere to your own rules - or a mechanism to demote you)
So to get back to my previous example of hateful speech....
It is very easy to report a violation of a swear word (quite honestly a moronic server rule) ... the evidence is CLEAR. If such a "bad" word was written - there is your evidence.
But what about players that are just generally negative towards other players? Players that are passive aggressive, that are "just very argumentative" and tend to disagree with another player. Players that tend to talk down to others and treat them like lesser beings?
It is MUCH harder to get solid evidence for that. Sure you can present an entire history of posts - each post by itself being harmless ... only together they paint a more negative picture - but who is meant to do that work? Lawyers?
What remains is often a negative "picture" of a person. You know someone is harmful - but you do not have an incident to point at.
It might be even worse ... What about a player that influences others to do harmful things in Disco related chats - while being totally polite on the official forum?
If you knew that this happened and your job is to keep the community healthy - what should you do? - There is no in-game or forum evidence.... .
All in all - it is a fuzzy grey area - and it all comes down to that....
How much do you trust the Admins to make decisions that are GOOD for the community.
RE: Admin Decision on the Banned Six - Thyrzul - 07-26-2016
If anything, Skype evidence should be used only as supporting other evidence collected from either the forum or in-game, clarification of intent behind action(s) and such, but sanctions themselves should not be based solely, nor mainly on them. Skype evidence shouldn't be anything more than supporting evidence, additional, but insufficient in itself.
And lol, Spaz, talking about what an adult should be while we have PG-6 swear rules in effect for both forums and server, seriously?
And lol, Spaz, talking about what an adult should be while we have PG-6 swear rules in effect for both forums and server, seriously?
RE: Admin Decision on the Banned Six - Corile - 07-27-2016
(07-26-2016, 11:47 PM)Jinx Wrote: How much do you trust the Admins to make decisions that are GOOD for the community.Seeing my last two months on the server, not at all tbh.
RE: Admin Decision on the Banned Six - Blackvertigo1 - 07-27-2016
I'm just cracking up with the whole "signature thing" Jinx has in their signature bar.
Really and the goes to anyone -- no one in particular if are going to be insulted from my off topic, please, shut up and realize your playing with my tech.