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+---- Thread: Why is PvP so damn difficult? (/showthread.php?tid=153537)
Why is PvP so damn difficult? - nOmnomnOm - 09-11-2017
It seems to me that every pvp update that happens either contributes to the existing difficulty for PvP or makes things even harder.
It also seems to not just me that the steps taken for PvP balance favor those that are already very good at it and want to stay that way, eliminating any "unfairness" that they come across. It's funny that even when they promise to bring things back, they are significantly worse and most of the time useless. "Skill with guns" is what seems to be important for developers to the point that instead of focusing to making hitting with guns a lot easier, they instead make all the other options of combat a lot harder.
For the point of my discussion I am taking about Snubs. I dont know that much about caps though I've tried it and it is also super difficult.
Missiles/Torpedoes:
Lets get the elephant out of the room here at first. Missiles and Torpedoes were really good for people that had less skill in pvp bust still wanted to have a chance TO WIN in a fight. There were clear counters to missiles but it just looks like the devs reverted to at first removing them from the game and when people started asking them back, they put them back but made them a LOT worse.
Here are some of the ways they have become worse. There are probably more:
1) Less Damage
2) No tracking
3) Complete Removal
4) Not allowing there to be more than 1
5) Not allowing it to be in place of a gun slot.
6) Making (ex Cannonball) it have a launching lag and then go straight and then fail to properly explode in proximate of the target.
All these things have made the weapong considerably weaker than what it once was. Why? Becasue people, and you know who you are, whine that it is sooooo unfair to your ego of being top good at PvP. Instead of coping and sharing some blues, they make an effort to make their chances of winning a whole lot stronger.
Mines:
The days where Screamers and Nuclear mines were a larger threat are over. There have been significant changes that I know of that have reduced this weapon into being heavier in skill than what it was. "You need to be closer/directly hit it" for it to take effect, is the answer now. Yeah... A little dot in a 3D area your oponent has to be dumb enough to run into. On top of that when you actually acheive it, there isnt the same reward as what there once was.
In short:
1) Reduced Damage on Sheilds or Hull
2) Reduced Range of explosion.
I used to be able to use for example a CD-Mine trick for screamers quite effectively, but I guess we cannot have PvP that easy since the pros cannot handle it.
CMs:
Reducing the amount of them is plain stupid. That's just my beef for them.
CDs:
Reducing the amount of CDs one can carry ... absolutely the most worst decision I have seen, ok? It doesn't only effect the mine-CD combat. It effects EVERYTHING including non-standard combat. It's just about the widest hit you can have while not seeming as much. I dont have much to say on the subject besides that.... but it's super annoying.
Introducing new weapons and lying they would be noob friendly:
That brrrt gun (that i forgot the name of, dont judge me):
In a stream with one of the developers, I listened and learned about a new gun that had the potential of evening the odds between noobs and vets. In theory it would be a gun that didnt need aim but sprayed and did damage. I was all for it, hopeful that it could be an interesting product to bring to the table.
What we go though is complete .... *sigh*
You have a gun that has 2000 ammo and takes the most $$ out of any weapon to fill up. Sure... whatever...
But then it doesnt deliver on the promise!
The gun randomly shoots a spray and the arc is very limited. It is hard to aim and actually needs to be aimed consistently to get a good effect. That is the essence of why it is bad and didn't deliver on the promise people like me hoped for. This gun is out-right bad and is a pain to use, having a steep curve to master and needing knowledge of advanced flight tactics in the prosses to pull it off. While this all might not be a bad thing on paper, it plays out to be a disappointment in game-play. The gun that was told to be something giving back to the player-base instead of missiles simply did not carry the weight.
Those Bomb snac-alternatives (not the NOVA):
When you make a gun that doesn't have proper aiming, there is going to be QUITE a problem, especially when the spray is SOO random and wide.
When you then make a gun that ALSO needs the user to come close to the target, thats going to be an EVEN BIGGER PROBLEM.
Don't feed me lies that it's easy to shoot, ok? It's hella tough and has not contributed to making the game easier in any way.
Are we ignoring the fact that the difficulty of learning is so steep that it has time and time again disuaded people from PvPing to the point that they either leave or turn to trading only? Possibly even after that they just become silent traders? Instead, how about we go about helping to make the learning curve a lot LESS steeper. How about we make the game a bit more friendly especially to new players? Is that SUCH A BIG CHALLENGE TO DO AS WELL AS TO THE EGOS OF PEOPLE ???
Just take a look at other games and you will see a different pattern of approach. The noob can still perform to a certain degree before dieing. You dont have for example Dota 2 containing only Pudges or Invokers, do you? (Yeah that's for you, Haste).
Instead of making the game all that more difficult for people and saying "get good" or "go learn in conn" or whatever, how about we even the playing feild?
>Make missiles actually work and be a threat. Having them home in again or actually WORK would be a good start.
>Make guns be able to hit a lot easier. Increasing speed or something. Lets not have the flashpoints be the only gun that can hit something for noobs, ok? BTW the animation on flashies were better before adding the piss-blob animation.
>Get mines to have a larger explosion effect maybe? Is that hard to ask for?
>For the love of god, man... what did CDs and CMs do to you that you need to nerf them. For crying out loud.
>Make that brrt gun actually easier to hit something.
>Bring Torpedoes back and stop the hate for them.
>Be able to mount more than one missile.
>Make the MR easier to hit and with better arcs if you REALLLLLY need to have a more gun-based pvp system.
>Take a look at snubs seperatly and their effectiveness. Stop taking time to change things that are already good and fix things that are useless. The Wasapu/Jackdaw? ship... you killed it. The crow/___ ship.... you killed it. The Spatial... you killed it. The OSC SHF... you killed it.
Basically anything you touch you ruin that you dont care about, so how about giving the responsibility of fixing these things to people that ACTUALLY care about it and don't have a stupid bias towards them.
Those are just a few.
I can already predict the comments that I will receive:
Stop whining, stop complaining, things are fine, train and get good etc etc.
No, they are not.
If freakin' pvp whores can complain that missiles were such of a butt-hurt for them that they got into power and started removing everything that is fun, then I am allowed to voice my damn opinion and not be automatically shut down for "whining".
WHIIIIIIIIINNNIINNNGGG
That's literally all people say when they don't have a defense. That or that I'm racist, sexist, bigoted, etc etc
"train and get good"
Instead of saying this bull-poo, how about you read and understand that the curve is TOO STEEP and it's been getting steeper more and more with every update.
It just shows you dont give a damn when you say this.
Anyway, dropping the mic and wont be replying to the thread.
These are my 2-cents.
im not gonna write any more... though I probably could.
RE: Why is PvP so damn difficult? - Foxglove - 09-11-2017
Nomperson Wrote:>Make missiles actually work and be a threat. Having them home in again or actually WORK would be a good start.
>Make guns be able to hit a lot easier. Increasing speed or something. Lets not have the flashpoints be the only gun that can hit something for noobs, ok? BTW the animation on flashies were better before adding the piss-blob animation.
>Get mines to have a larger explosion effect maybe? Is that hard to ask for?
>For the love of god, man... what did CDs and CMs do to you that you need to nerf them. For crying out loud.
>Make that brrt gun actually easier to hit something.
>Bring Torpedoes back and stop the hate for them.
>Be able to mount more than one missile.
>Make the MR easier to hit and with better arcs if you REALLLLLY need to have a more gun-based pvp system.
>Take a look at snubs seperatly and their effectiveness. Stop taking time to change things that are already good and fix things that are useless. The Wasapu/Jackdaw? ship... you killed it. The crow/___ ship.... you killed it. The Spatial... you killed it. The OSC SHF... you killed it.
I can find myself agreeing with some of this. It is false that missiles currently are not a threat — the Sidewinder is extremely dangerous to fight against. However, I do agree that there should be more of a choice when it comes to weapons. Before the Auxiliary slot, the player had a choice: Do I sacrifice a gun to have a missile? Do I want a CD launcher or a torpedo launcher? All of this consideration for loadout has been utterly eliminated with the addition of the Auxiliary slots. Not only are those slots for VHFs only, thereby devaluing HFs, they also eliminate the choice I mentioned above. Do I want a torpedo-like missile or a CD? Who cares! I can have Sidewinders and CDs.
Ships like the Outcast HF, the Carabela, have been specifically balanced with torpedoes in mind. It has a CD/Torp slot and a CD slot. Currently, it can mount two CD launchers on that. Thank you, that is what I always wanted. Absolutely useless if you can just fly a Sabre and shoot Sidewinders at people, have more hull, more guns and no pathological desire to self-nuke because PVP has become so nauseatingly trite.
All changes to snub PVP in the last year were terrible. The pinnacle of it, though, was the addition of the Auxiliary slot. Instead of increasing player choice, it drastically reduced the viable options. HFs have virtually disappeared, except Kusari snubs. Torpedoes, missiles have been removed and replaced with mediocre substitutes while they have been completely fine before. And even if that were not an issue, say by extending Aux slots to all snub classes and adding more Aux slot weapons, you would still face the issue of not needing to decide what loadout you want. You can still have a torpedo-like missile and a CD on everything. You cannot make any mistake with the Aux slots. It is just "an extra gun". It is a fundamentally flawed concept and it needs to absolutely go.
RE: Why is PvP so damn difficult? - SnakThree - 09-11-2017
It's only hard if you PvP against better players or players of equal skill with better equipment.
~ Everygame ever created.
Serious mode: Some time ago missiles were absolute crap. Then they were made amazing, then worse, then amazing again, then worse. Now I lost which state they are in. Case in point,
RE: Why is PvP so damn difficult? - Titan* - 09-11-2017
if you want fast pvp, you should fly capital ships instead of snubs
I suggest Cruisers, they are more fun to fly but you need to train a lot
RE: Why is PvP so damn difficult? - Foxglove - 09-11-2017
(09-11-2017, 04:13 PM)Titan* Wrote: if you want fast pvp, you should fly capital ships instead of snubs
I suggest Cruisers, they are more fun to fly but you need to train a lot
That was not the point he was making, Titan.
RE: Why is PvP so damn difficult? - Titan* - 09-11-2017
(09-11-2017, 04:23 PM)Foxglove Wrote:(09-11-2017, 04:13 PM)Titan* Wrote: if you want fast pvp, you should fly capital ships instead of snubs
I suggest Cruisers, they are more fun to fly but you need to train a lot
That was not the point he was making, Titan.
By fast i mean, Capital PVP not difficult like Snub PVP
RE: Why is PvP so damn difficult? - sasapinjic - 09-11-2017
Agreed with most of in OP, thise changes had kill game and server. Many players have lost will to play and hardly log anymore, couse they see things only gets worse and worse, me included. I only log on ocasionly now, mainly playing around my shipyard post, but i loosing interes in that to. At this rate i predict "this time next year" we will see this game dead, or with only 10 players at peek time (probably same 10 players that are so callled pvp elite).
One can even draw conclusion that was goal all along , to clear game of all except them, kind of "we conquer all, we chase them all off" achivment.
Time will tell how true that is.
PS
This "lets post troll ansvers in debate about serious problems in game" dont help either!
RE: Why is PvP so damn difficult? - Foxglove - 09-11-2017
Aha. Very relevant, Titan?
In any case, can we actually have a discussion here? These non sequitors are grating and not helpful.
RE: Why is PvP so damn difficult? - nOmnomnOm - 09-11-2017
I said i wont reply but I want to add just one more thing to clear things up:
[11:51:48 AM] Me: If i am against someone in RL with a gun and i have a gun and I suck at shooting.... i can perhaps shoot a granade
Everyone can use a granade... but at least i have a better chance of killing him and he has a closer chance to me at killing him
it all boils down to: how much of a chance does both people have of winning
[11:52:27 AM] Me: err... not shoot a granade xD
[11:52:29 AM] Me: throw
Skype convo.
What I mean by leveling the playing field is having a poor player still give a vet some amount of danger that doesn't require that much skill/experience. It LEVELS the chances of kill and this counters the argument that a vet can abuse a noob-tube.
Sure, they can use it but the point is that a noob can use it just as effectively or at least REALLY close. The skill and effectivness at that point is LEVELED.
RE: Why is PvP so damn difficult? - Corile - 09-11-2017
TL;DR
Comparing anything in disco to real life immediately lowers the value of your argument.
Nukes were fine and I'm not entirely sure if they were changed that drastically, they required you to have situational awareness and let you finish fights quickly when your opponent was making mistakes. I think they should have larger damage radius but less hp. Instakills are good.
Screamers are fine as they are.
CDs should be returned to the ammo count they had previously, it's not the community's fault that Haste can't pvp.
There is also a change I suggested some time on TS and it is to implement guns that are copies of some existing weapons (Flashpoint, PG, Heavy Flashpoint), but they take no energy and do less damage. The DPS drop should be significant (about 50%) so that someone using the regular version of the gun and hitting every shot does more DPS than someone using the no energy one.
Alternatively faster refire speed weapons should be buffed again.
After implementing any of the two above, auxillary slot should be removed.
Sidewinder should take a CD slot.
TL;DR of the above: Revert all changes Haste did since November last year.