Been wandering for a while now, I'd like to know what others think. I know this place pretty well, and I know a thread like this won't make any difference at all, I'm also prepared for the flames and hate ( like wise) but still.
I've recently been looking at the PoB guide and have noticed this:
(05-16-2012, 02:10 AM)Daedric Wrote:
Quick Start Guide
Want to know the cost and time it takes? Take a look at the below.
Core Upgrade - Cost to make 116M. 5k trips = 84 (per Upgrade)
Docking Module Factory - Cost to make 15.5M. 5k trips = 12 Docking Module - Cost to make 14.25M. 5k trips = 12
Jump Drive Factory - Cost to make 34M. 5k trips = 20
Hyperspace Scanner Factory - Cost to make 49.5M. 5k trips = 24
Cloaking Device Factory - Cost to make 30M. 5k trips = 14
Weapon Platform - Cost to make 27.75M. 5k trips = 16
Shield Generator Module - Cost to make 20.25M. 5k trips = 12
Storage Module - Cost to make 23.25M. 5k trips = 19 JD MkII - Cost to make 37.25M. 5k trips = 27
JD MkIII - Cost to make 69.2M. 5k trips = 40
Jump Drive MkIV - Cost to make 80M. 5k trips = 50 Hyperspace Survey Mk1 - Cost to make 47M. 5k trips = 35
Hyperspace Survey Mk2 - Cost to make 59.5M. 5k trips = 44
Hyperspace Survey Mk3 - Cost to make 70.75M. 5k trips = 52 Cloaking Device (Small) - Cost to make 15M. 5k trips = 12
Cloaking Device (Medium/MkII) - Cost to make 30M. 5k trips = 23
Cloaking Device (Large/MkII Advanced) - Cost to make 45M. 5k trips = 34
Tbh , I dunno how accurate these calculations are, but it gave me a question. How come, if these things are relatively "cheap" to make, even if we consider the time needed to make one as a "cost" , yet for example an average Docking Module price is around 100 million ( with ~15-20 mill build costs ) or a Survey Module with an average build cost of ~50 million getting sold for 250 million.
Cloaks are somewhat different, cause you'd need Nomad remains for those, even though with nowadays "lower" activity numbers, it isn't that hard to get a few, unlike it used to be back in the days, so I still find prices a bit outrageous sometimes. (5 - 600 million for something costing ~ max 60 million. )
Don't get me wrong, this is not a Q.Q thread about anything, and I know exactly how a capitalistic market is working ( or how it should be - been studying this for 4 years ) but profit gaps seem to get bigger and bigger, most probably due to not to many people are willing to spend time on building a PoB and producing these equipments, so the ones who do can basically decide prices like "who cares, noone else is gonna make you one, so pay up son... " , what is good for them cause they tend to make huge profit , (even though they will end up in the money sink called NPC ship sales anyways...) and makes people who do not have sufficent time to grind with a 5k up to that amount rethink twice if they actually should go for it or not.
In my opinion, the reason PoBs got the capability to make these things ( instead of just putting them into guard systems to be sold by NPCs for a "high" price ( like armor) is to give people RP possibilities ( or I would expect this to be the main role along with the base idea of PoBs ) but since the whole Market thread turned OoRp, they basically turned into another way of earning "fast profit" for those who can continously maintain a PoB.
Ideas, opinions ? Or am I the only one has thoughts about this ? Please share / discuss.
Edit: For refference, I'd add the OSI price list for comparison.
Since you guys are not willing to RP for your stuff, here are the (slightly increased) non-RP-prices for our builds. We try to keep one on stock of each, but that is sometimes hard to achieve.
However, we're OSI, we can build anything. So post your orders bellow. First come first served.
Jumpdrive II - 250'000'000 Sc
Jumpdrive III - 450'000'000 Sc
Jumpdrive IV - 600'000'000 Sc
Survey Module Mk I - 250'000'000 Sc
Survey Module Mk II - 300'000'000 Sc
Survey Module Mk III - 400'000'000 Sc
Small Cloak (Light cloaking Device): 170'000'000 Sc
Medium Cloak (Cloaking Device Mk II): 350'000'000 Sc
Large cloak (Cloaking Device Mk II Advanced): 500'000'000vSc
[11:20:20] aerelm: its not fl dev work if you dont have to power through the whole thing on your own
[11:20:32] aerelm: help is for pussy devs like in dota
(07-28-2014, 09:01 AM)Tunicle Wrote: And the time and material to make the bases and factories?
Are your raw material prices the cheapest because for some that is a long flight time to reach?
If you were just trading you would probably earn 30-40 million per hour, so that time offset should be factored in.
And as you mentioned the notion of capitalism.
As I said, I get that, however for the "top" equipment with a profit gap of roughtly 500 million credits os something a whole more than what you'll ever earn while flying a transport for 1 day. Or at least I think.
(07-28-2014, 09:02 AM)utrack Wrote:
(05-16-2012, 02:10 AM)Daedric Wrote: Hyperspace Survey Mk3 - Cost to make 70.75M. 5k trips = 52
(07-28-2014, 09:03 AM)osama gulryz Wrote: It take a lot of time to collect material to make stuff and maintinance of POB is another problem, keeping it supplied
I can reply with a quote. Although time only depends on where exactly the base is placed, but if one is doing a careful plan, I think it is possible to have a station with most important things at hand.
(05-16-2012, 02:10 AM)Daedric Wrote: For example, to make a Core 4 Base with the following Modules:
5 x Storage
2 x Weapon Platforms
1 x Shield Module
1 x Docking Module Factory
1 x Jump Drive Factory
1 x Cloaking Device Factory
1 x Hyperspace Scanner Factory
It will cost 642.5M to build and will take a total of 461 Trips using a 5ker.
So just looking at the raw cost of things, construction materials of a fully equipped core 4 base and some profit comes back after selling 2-3 high end equipment. ( BS Fleet JD , BS cloak , Survey MK III. )
Again, time is a different thing, but since stations are not put next to each other, some can get things done faster then others. However if a station is run by more people, then time to make an equipment is less of an issue, plus maintaining a base alone is absolutely impossible if you have a life aswell.
Man, you don't know what is porpouse of "busines" ? Generate profit.
And yeah, upkeeping PoB takes some time and effort, so thouse players are limited with standart traditional cargo from A to B trading, so they compensating it with such equipment trading, why not.
With 5Ker, even being hard core RP trader (haul only thouse commoduties, which your NPC's faction base selling, or purchasing+ Planets which are for everyone), so generating 200 millions isn't challenge at all.
It depends a lot on how you calculate numbers. I had a base building JDs and docking modules last year, and these are the numbers I came up with then based on last version's prices and including time for transport to Kusari (specifically, paying a fair price to independent people comparable to similar good shipments). Thus you could trade to the base and be paid roughly what trading elsewhere would get you, so the profit at the end was pure profit.
As the person who did the calculations about the Trips required and the cost of the materials to build the items I can confirm that these are correct.
As for the prices that are charged, these have been set from the days when the Materials weren't a set price per item. The prices varied greatly for say Ship Hull Panels bought at Stokes Mining Facility for 200 to 3000+ when bought in Gallia (Leeds at that time wasn't available to Gallia).
As with any economy it depends on supply and demand. If people aren't willing to buy these items at the prices asked then the sellers would have to drop their prices.
When I make a Docking Module it will take me about 3.5 - 4 hours to do those 12 Trips (and don't forget that most 5kers, by the time you have fitted guns and armour, don't have 5k of hold space left and so the amount of trips is more. In that time I have made a profit of 54.3 Million. This profit is based on going from the Base to the first station, picking up a commodity and selling it at the station that sells the items I need for the building of the Docking Module. Add that to the selling price of 120 million and it works out to a total profit of 174.3 Million. This works out approximately to 45 million credits per hour.
Other Bases profit may vary due to the fact that the required materials are nearer/further away and the availability of a good commodity to sell to that NPC Base.
Quote:Hyperspace Survey Mk1 - Cost to make 47M. 5k trips = 35
Survey Module with an average build cost of ~50 million getting sold for 250 million.
Using roughly the same timescales this would take 10.5 - 12 hours to make and thus the profit per hour is approximately the same if you could possibly make the same margin on making it.
I hope this has but a more favourable perspective on the OP issue of prices.
At the end of the day if you don't like the prices you don't have to buy them. Other possibility is build your own Base and make them yourself.
Just in case you want to build your own Core 4 Base I also worked out this:
Quote:For example, to make a Core 4 Base with the following Modules:
5 x Storage
2 x Weapon Platforms
1 x Shield Module
1 x Docking Module Factory
1 x Jump Drive Factory
1 x Cloaking Device Factory
1 x Hyperspace Scanner Factory
It will cost 642.5M to build and will take a total of 461 Trips using a 5ker.
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'I would like to be half as clever as some people like to believe they are' Life is full of disappointments, it is how we handle them that helps to define us, as a person
(07-28-2014, 09:18 AM)Oldum Wrote: Again, time is a different thing, but since stations are not put next to each other, some can get things done faster then others. However if a station is run by more people, then time to make an equipment is less of an issue, plus maintaining a base alone is absolutely impossible if you have a life aswell.
Yes the time is greatly reduced but so is the profit per person. So if it takes 12 hours for one person to make an item and his profit is 250 million it will take 3 people 4 hours each but their profit is only 83.33 million each.
It is all relative.
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'I would like to be half as clever as some people like to believe they are' Life is full of disappointments, it is how we handle them that helps to define us, as a person
(07-28-2014, 09:18 AM)Oldum Wrote: So just looking at the raw cost of things, construction materials of a fully equipped core 4 base and some profit comes back after selling 2-3 high end equipment. ( BS Fleet JD , BS cloak , Survey MK III. )
If you were the luckiest person in the game and managed to place your base close to all the required materials (which is impossible as some of the materials are only sold in specific locations) and each trip required a total, there and back, 10 minutes, this would still take you 4610 minutes to make or 76.83 hours. Sell the JD MkIV, Cloak MkII Advanced and Survey MkIII for a grand total of 1.5 Billion.
That works out at 19.5 million credits per hour but that doesn't include the time taken to build the items. Factor that time as well and the profit per hour drops to a little over 15 million.
This also doesn't take in to account the Food, Oxygen, Water and Reinforced Alloy that the Base consumes each day.
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'I would like to be half as clever as some people like to believe they are' Life is full of disappointments, it is how we handle them that helps to define us, as a person