Antonio already explained the solution that worked in the past several times in this thread.
Keep missiles (downtone the Sidewinder a little)
Keep Maxim(um) Chaingun.
But: Make them take a gun slot or a CD-slot.
The noob tubes are not levelling the playing field at all if vets also use them. It makes the bad player die even faster. Try fighting 2 aces who have Sidewinders - it's as much fun as bathing in lava and as short as it, too.
The idea is to give noobs some tools that are easier to use, that take places that vets will not be willing to sacrifice. 30 missiles to hit hull for those who cannot, for a gun. Vets won't do that. Newbies will.
This system worked fine in the past. It was more inclusive and with some fine-tuning of currently OP Sidewinders, it can work.
Oh and: can we pleaaaaaase fix CDs? What happened to them that they nearly never track and just fly in a straight line to wherever?!
That's so annoying if mine traps do not work and while I am struggling with steering and aiming, I am forced to re-select the target x-times for a chance of launching a CD. That really sucks, especially if snub-pvp is already a challenge.
I remember non-tracking CDs or CDs losing their tracking have never been a problem in the past.
(09-21-2017, 01:22 PM)Karlotta Wrote: Also, discover doesn't really cater to noobs. There literally is no progression where noobs get to have fun doing what they expect from a freelancer mod. It's something devs have continuously neglected and not cared about for years, and turned down many attempts to help fix.
The gear-gathering was killed by strict technerfs, the repping with missions and bribes was killed by ID autorepping, the exploration was killed by /restarts, the PvE was killed by no-CD easy to kill npcs, there is no interesting storyline they can meaningfully participate in, they can't form new groups without them getting stomped dead. All of that to make things more comfy for entitled vets.
THIS IS PART OF THE MAIN PROBLEM , why progress when i can restart , why fly to another system when i can restart 20 chars and put them everywhere and i get 20 bases to counter raids,but why wait for raids when i can go pvp in conn,boom i go to conn,i pvp for an hour,i log out and no raid was made that day,from what i see at the moment RP has become PVP
(09-21-2017, 01:22 PM)Karlotta Wrote: All noobs are expected to do is be pirated while mining and trading, be easy targets, and behave in every way the vets want them to hoping to have a little more to say in a few years. And that's not much fun.
This i dont agree with,back in the day when there were no restarts you started in Penny and worked your way from there however you first went into Liberty which was HEAVILY defended and you could get a pretty good start under protection from the police and navy in which there were also quite a bit of aces
(09-21-2017, 01:22 PM)Karlotta Wrote: The "PvP is too difficult" is really just part of a much broader issue.
Pvp is ment to be challenging however as a former ace who has trained people i can say that with 3-5 1-hour lessons by anyone who knows his stuff + 10-20 hours practice you can become average at pvping without too much trouble,1 on 1 you will not be able to defeat a veteran but you will be able to drain some hull and with luck will be able to beat him 3 out of 10 times
this has been tested
(09-21-2017, 12:55 PM)Epo Wrote: Exactly, the old gun/missle & cd/torp/mr worked perfectly fine in my humble opinion. Vets could still kill newbies withno any effort, but some newbies could at least do something if they lacked some natural aim, with hopes of their missiles to hit.
And I'll still complain about the removal of missiles, which took away another vanilla feeling of the game. Like in vanila you could even mount missiles instead of regular gun, not class 10 slot like we used to have in disco. It'd be my actual perfect dream, but I have high doubts for bringing it back to this state of things.
Well said Epo
(09-21-2017, 02:06 PM)Durandal Wrote: Missiles are far better now than they were in .85 or earlier, when a single well timed CD could counter them in duels and they would never hit in chase due to countermeasures. Now there's an 80% chance or so of them bypassing CMs entirely, and you need lightning fast reflexes to CD a 400 m/s sidewinder in time.
HHC cannonballs require lightning fast reflexes to cd....sidewinders can only be cd'd if you are really good at anticipating and lucky at that moment , though if launched from a little more distance even that wont be enough, though i still consider this only a minor balance issue
(09-21-2017, 04:18 PM)Traxit Wrote:
(09-21-2017, 04:06 PM)nOmnomnOm Wrote: Torpedoes were fun and great. now they are gone because of struteny from "players who know how to pvp".
If you're speaking about the Starkiller & Sunslayer, then yes, I get why you were saying they're fun, but they were not great to the balance of the game. Ruthless tactics used by ye olde veteran PvPers which basically "missile-bended" the 20k damage load onto your ship in a near instant and without themselves getting damaged eliminated the "fun" from torpedoes.
An honorable mention are the instakill loadouts that used those torpedoes, this game doesn't need instakills unless it's clearly skill-based.
Not to mention the Starkiller which was basically a better Sidewinder.
Biggest load of .... that ive heard , the amount of players capable of doing that in the history of disco are a minority inside the ace minority , bending the torp requires specific timing which can be exploited to deadly effect by any cd-wielding player,you usually end up dead unless you are perfect,they were fun and they should be returned as they were since they gave the possibility of any noob making an ace cry by ram-torp-nuking him,quite frankly i enjoyed the rage - even aces should die from time to time , else their egos become larger than appropriate
Snub pvp balancing is just a matter of removing cheap tools. No-one is going to have serious gripes about losing to just guns, but people will get pissy about being SNAC'd by a bomber that's as small as and as fast as a slow VHF. Just remove all these extra weapons and leave it to the old fashioned guns-razor-cd. Simple is best.
I'm far more concerned with cap pvp. Cap pvp balance requires a lot more effort and thought, and unfortunately not much has changed in the last 5 years. Caps are where people with high ping & less snub skill go, and for better or worse, where the noobs go, their experience with caps will determine if they stay or go.
Has no-one any ideas of how to fix caps? Like, real ideas, not band-aid fixes. It was quite disappointing to log in to a cap fight where LN/BAF were 100% Liberty Battlecruiser and GRN were 100% Valor. This is 4.83 level balance, with clear "winner" ships guys. And please, get rid of capital ship cloaks, they're not being used for roleplay and its not hard to see this.
Can we not try a completely new formula for caps? I mean, something quite drastic;
Get rid of all weapons but primaries, mortars and missiles
Nerf gun speed/turret rotation
Remove shields, massively buff hull
Make battleships 40 impulse, Cruisers 60, gunboats 80
Cruise charge x10
And most important, make small/big irrelevant by making all weapons low range & make hulls mostly the same value. Am I the only one who hates turret steering from 3k Battleship vs Battleship? Its not surprising at all that its LBC vs Valor and not Libertydread\dunkirk vs Valor, there is literally no reason to pick a small battleship when a cruiser does the long range bore-fest better than a small battleship.
Note, I'm not demanding everything above be added, but just similiar concepts be brainstormed and tried in order to make cap combat fun.
(09-11-2017, 04:40 PM)sasapinjic Wrote: At this rate i predict "this time next year" we will see this game dead, or with only 10 players at peek time (probably same 10 players that are so called pvp elite).
One can even draw conclusion that was goal all along , to clear game of all except them, kind of "we conquer all, we chase them all off" achievement.
Before i get to my 2 cents, i have to agree with this a bit. Ever since i returned a little while ago, i've been wondering a similar thing. It feels like the mod has taken a VERY radical change in management and direction and the new 'controllers' seem to want to make the mod so unplayable for most that everybody leaves of their own choice.
But that's neither here nor there. Anyway......
As someone who's spent a fair bit of time playing here over a few years, and falls in the 'not very good at pvp' category, i have to agree wholeheartedly with Nom and others in this thread.
I mostly gave up on pvp because the ability/learning curve for it became so steep (kinda EVE style steep) that it just wasnt fun anymore to even try to pvp. I'm not some sort of wannabe pro gamer who will happily spend hours upon hours to become a 'leet' pvp whore.
The last time i properly pvp'd in a snub was late 2014 or very early 2015. The last time i ever properly pvp'd, and one of the few times i actually enjoyed it, was sometime in 2015.
That was a pure GB pew with just guns where it was a 2 vs me and i still managed to kill one and almost kill the other with my mediocre skills. It was simple but i felt accomplished after it because it was truly fun to put up a really good fight.
From early 2016, the 'openness' of pvp to all players really began to deteriorate in my opinion. It killed a fair bit of motivation to log and play and, judging by this thread, im not the only one who was put off.