05-31-2014, 04:56 PM
05-31-2014, 04:57 PM
Even if you count the missiles and bullets and guns ammo, which should be standing at gun ports or near them to make reloading faster and easier, the only reason why would those be sitting in cargo bay would be if it was a spare ammo. And ships don't carry million bullets, wouldn't you agree.
05-31-2014, 05:05 PM
(05-31-2014, 04:53 PM)Geolog Wrote: [ -> ]Your logic is flawed as well.
There is a clear difference between ''cargo hold'' and ''other parts of the ship''. For example: those cables you speak of are not stocked and siting in cargo bay. They run through walls of the ship, through floor and ceiling.
On the other hand cargo bay is meant for ''cargo only'', for commodities. Those cables could only be taking cargo space if they were a commodity to be shipped from one place to another.
Cargo Space is available space for Cargo, granted. Now I want to fit a new weapon system on my ship. It takes up more space than what is available for the original weapons fitted.
Where do I find this extra space? Hmm.....I must use some of my available Cargo Space to put in the extra equipment needed.
Quote:Imagine you had a car. Cargo space would be it's trunk. How can lights, which are on the car, take overall trunk's space?
Also granted, but I want to fit a big stereo system in my Car. It won't fit in the little slot that my small stereo, that came with the car, fitted in to. Hmm.....where to put it? I know I will stick it in the boot/trunk.
Hopefully that improves my flawed logic.
In game, certain weapons, shields etc don't take up any Cargo Space but putting the better weapons and shields do. Hopefully my logic isn't that flawed?
05-31-2014, 05:15 PM
Eh, we can go like this forever... I will make one more attempt to explain.
Those guns are on the hull of the ship, maybe in some rums on the ship and spare compartments. But under no circumstances can you mix ''Cargo space'' with those spare compartments and small empty places on the ship. ''Cargo space'' is the place where you store your commodities for transporting not the place where you will place your guns with which you want to shoot.
Now to test your logic:
You want to put guns in cargo space, tell me how will you shoot with them from inside of the ship? Will you make a big hole in the ships armor and destroy your own ship in process of shooting enemy ship?
Those guns are on the hull of the ship, maybe in some rums on the ship and spare compartments. But under no circumstances can you mix ''Cargo space'' with those spare compartments and small empty places on the ship. ''Cargo space'' is the place where you store your commodities for transporting not the place where you will place your guns with which you want to shoot.
Now to test your logic:
You want to put guns in cargo space, tell me how will you shoot with them from inside of the ship? Will you make a big hole in the ships armor and destroy your own ship in process of shooting enemy ship?
05-31-2014, 05:18 PM
Hi everyone,
We are playing a game involving warp travel, psychic alien infestations, super-mutating drugs, and somewhat questionable flight physics. I think the issue is less "logic" and real-world rationales as it is balance.
Why do codenames have to take a negligible 1 space? This means that an AU8 Arrow or Hayabusa cannot mount the new LF codes. It was determined before .87 that missiles should take some cargo space - especially with gunboat missile turrets and larger now taking ammo. As many forms of missiles have already had their limits reduced, is it still necessary to add a little bit of cargo space?
These guns take only negligible amounts of cargo space, so will it really shake up the ship's balance? Is it just made to ensure some ships may have to decide between sacrificing codes/turrets to equip heavier armor or haul more cloak fuel/trading cargo? Is it truly meant to be a holdover until a way to figure out how to tie cargo/armor/equipment to a ship's mass? Perhaps an appeal to the balance devs based around these points would make for a better case.
We are playing a game involving warp travel, psychic alien infestations, super-mutating drugs, and somewhat questionable flight physics. I think the issue is less "logic" and real-world rationales as it is balance.
Why do codenames have to take a negligible 1 space? This means that an AU8 Arrow or Hayabusa cannot mount the new LF codes. It was determined before .87 that missiles should take some cargo space - especially with gunboat missile turrets and larger now taking ammo. As many forms of missiles have already had their limits reduced, is it still necessary to add a little bit of cargo space?
These guns take only negligible amounts of cargo space, so will it really shake up the ship's balance? Is it just made to ensure some ships may have to decide between sacrificing codes/turrets to equip heavier armor or haul more cloak fuel/trading cargo? Is it truly meant to be a holdover until a way to figure out how to tie cargo/armor/equipment to a ship's mass? Perhaps an appeal to the balance devs based around these points would make for a better case.
05-31-2014, 05:38 PM
(05-31-2014, 04:15 PM)Antonio- Wrote: [ -> ]Why do guns, who are mounted on the ship, and visible from the outside, take cargo space that is meant for cargo storage which is in the ship?
Same goes for CD, mines, CM and such. It doesn't make any sense.
InRP, think of it as all the electronics and housing for the required components
05-31-2014, 06:17 PM
all of those housings and electronics you'd think would be built in to the craft, and therefore not calculated in the CARGO HOLD
the cargo hold is typically a dedicated space within the ship meant for only storage. On smaller ships, these are small arms cubbys and maybe a empty torpedo tube with a door on it.
Larger ships have cargo bays, large expansive rooms meant for storing the supplies said ship will need for a journey, or whatever cargo they're hauling..
Things like this are why it kinda bothers me we store crew in the cargo bay.... Crew goes in the crew cabins, not the cargo bays.
Thats just me though.
Any weapons you dont have equipped, certainly should be put in the cargo bay. Last I checked, we didnt strap spare cargo to the outside of our ships (that tends to cause problems with atmospheric re-entries and center of mass and whatnot)
the cargo hold is typically a dedicated space within the ship meant for only storage. On smaller ships, these are small arms cubbys and maybe a empty torpedo tube with a door on it.
Larger ships have cargo bays, large expansive rooms meant for storing the supplies said ship will need for a journey, or whatever cargo they're hauling..
Things like this are why it kinda bothers me we store crew in the cargo bay.... Crew goes in the crew cabins, not the cargo bays.
Thats just me though.
Any weapons you dont have equipped, certainly should be put in the cargo bay. Last I checked, we didnt strap spare cargo to the outside of our ships (that tends to cause problems with atmospheric re-entries and center of mass and whatnot)
05-31-2014, 06:43 PM
(05-31-2014, 05:15 PM)Geolog Wrote: [ -> ]Eh, we can go like this forever... I will make one more attempt to explain.
Those guns are on the hull of the ship, maybe in some rums on the ship and spare compartments. But under no circumstances can you mix ''Cargo space'' with those spare compartments and small empty places on the ship. ''Cargo space'' is the place where you store your commodities for transporting not the place where you will place your guns with which you want to shoot.
Now to test your logic:
You want to put guns in cargo space, tell me how will you shoot with them from inside of the ship? Will you make a big hole in the ships armor and destroy your own ship in process of shooting enemy ship?
I will try this simply. A Cargo Ship can mount a Freighter Shield and use no cargo capacity. The original design of the ship, for arguments sake, was for all the Machinery, Electronics and Electrical Gear to mounted internally. The Cargo Space available is 5000. The shield capacity is somewhere in the 20-29k capacity of protection.
Now I want to change my ship to having a Shield that has a capacity, of protection, of 100k. This is 3-5 times more capacity than it had before.
The shield Generator is probably a lot larger. The Cables that run the power to all the external projectors probably need to be increased. The external Projectors need to upgraded. The equipment that is connect, internally, to these projectors need to be up graded. All of this possibly requires more space than was originally given when the ship is built. The only available space is the Cargo Space to mount all the extra equipment in.
As for guns. Yes they are mounted externally. But as I said previously all of the machinery and other equipment needed to power these guns must be placed somewhere. These guns aren't miraculously attached to the outside without needing support and power. Normal Guns (ones that were designed to be fitted to the ship) don't take up cargo space. The bigger and better guns (that the designers didn't make allowance for) need space to mount all the extra requirements for those guns.
05-31-2014, 06:47 PM
The cargo space is not negligible, it matters.
Say a BS has 1800 cargo space, and a JD3 mounted which takes up 900 cargo space
Say the user wants to transfer the JD to another ship - logically (after docking) he should just be able to unmount the JD, but no because the remaining 900 cargo space of the BS, the guns - which may I remind you are mounted on hardpoints ON THE OUTSIDE - you know, the turrets and the CDs and CMs which are all ON THE OUTSIDE of the ship take up cargo space - which is in a generic cargo hold ON THE INSIDE of the ship, I have to unmount ALL of my guns and equipment to store it somewhere else just to unmount the jd. And this is not a impossible occasion because it is personal experience.
Now weapon hardpoints are like usb ports, the guns you buy are like the peripherals on a computer which's casing you can open. When you put it within the computer case (cargo hold) sure it takes space, but it doesn't take any space externally when you retrieve it and mount it there, because the existing usb port (hardpoints) and infrastructure that powers and links to the usb device is already there, whether with the usb device or not. So it should not take up any cargo space when mounted. Armor etc are of course a different story, but guns and CDs and CMs and thrusters (which may I remind you are actually visible on the ship models) should not take up any cargo space at all when mounted.
Say a BS has 1800 cargo space, and a JD3 mounted which takes up 900 cargo space
Say the user wants to transfer the JD to another ship - logically (after docking) he should just be able to unmount the JD, but no because the remaining 900 cargo space of the BS, the guns - which may I remind you are mounted on hardpoints ON THE OUTSIDE - you know, the turrets and the CDs and CMs which are all ON THE OUTSIDE of the ship take up cargo space - which is in a generic cargo hold ON THE INSIDE of the ship, I have to unmount ALL of my guns and equipment to store it somewhere else just to unmount the jd. And this is not a impossible occasion because it is personal experience.
Now weapon hardpoints are like usb ports, the guns you buy are like the peripherals on a computer which's casing you can open. When you put it within the computer case (cargo hold) sure it takes space, but it doesn't take any space externally when you retrieve it and mount it there, because the existing usb port (hardpoints) and infrastructure that powers and links to the usb device is already there, whether with the usb device or not. So it should not take up any cargo space when mounted. Armor etc are of course a different story, but guns and CDs and CMs and thrusters (which may I remind you are actually visible on the ship models) should not take up any cargo space at all when mounted.
06-01-2014, 09:56 AM
(05-31-2014, 06:43 PM)St.Denis Wrote: [ -> ]I will try this simply. A Cargo Ship can mount a Freighter Shield and use no cargo capacity. The original design of the ship, for arguments sake, was for all the Machinery, Electronics and Electrical Gear to mounted internally. The Cargo Space available is 5000. The shield capacity is somewhere in the 20-29k capacity of protection.
Now I want to change my ship to having a Shield that has a capacity, of protection, of 100k. This is 3-5 times more capacity than it had before.
The shield Generator is probably a lot larger. The Cables that run the power to all the external projectors probably need to be increased. The external Projectors need to upgraded. The equipment that is connect, internally, to these projectors need to be up graded. All of this possibly requires more space than was originally given when the ship is built. The only available space is the Cargo Space to mount all the extra equipment in.
Eh... where to start...
You know that the first computers where hangars sizes? But as the time and technology progressed so did the computers. Look how big are they today. You can fit them in your hand. Same goes with generators. Human species always looks to compress things and make them smaller, no mater of their size or use. Cables don't need to be changed and to be bigger, even more they would be smaller. Technology would probably make new cables that would transfer larger quantities of power through wires with greater speeds.
Or for example USB flash drive. With each day it's getting smaller. I've seen some girls carrying USB-necklaces instead of gold-silver ones. They have gotten very small since their introduction to Humanity, wouldn't you say.
Or, I just remembered, there are micro chips today. Who are we to say that in 1000 years Humanity wouldn't be using micro singularity - aka small black holes contained by chambers with high gravity field, to harness their unlimited energy.
So you see even in today's world in which technology is not so advanced there are plenty of examples where all sorts of equipment are getting smaller and smaller.
(05-31-2014, 06:43 PM)St.Denis Wrote: [ -> ]As for guns. Yes they are mounted externally. But as I said previously all of the machinery and other equipment needed to power these guns must be placed somewhere. These guns aren't miraculously attached to the outside without needing support and power. Normal Guns (ones that were designed to be fitted to the ship) don't take up cargo space. The bigger and better guns (that the designers didn't make allowance for) need space to mount all the extra requirements for those guns.
As far as I know ships guns are powered by ship's ''core'', I'm I not right? And again cables go through walls. So, guns aren't powered by new generators which are places inside the ship next to the original one, but by the existing ship's core. Because ship builders knew that they would need to build more powerful cores for any of the ship's future tech to be implemented into ship.
And ''cargo storage'', you store ''cargo'' in it, and not turn it into equipment shop. It's the same as you having a garage and instead of putting a car in it you fill it up with all the mess from the house in it.
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I guess you have seen a lot of Sci Fi movies and tv-series. In those movies and series I haven't seen any tearing up of the ships walls, floors or ceilings to replace the exiting ''cables and equipment'' to make tech on the ship better. But, using the existent network to maximize ship's capabilities is shown everywhere.
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No more argument and discussion from me will be coming to this thread, because posting here one more time to explain something will probably result in me going on a cursing rampage.
So to prevent any of that I will just say...
Hastalavista...
Geolog leaves....