Discovery Gaming Community

Greetings.

I am, or better said, was the owner of Andrea. I was told I have been sanctioned for using a "/stuck" macro while attempting to gain an unfair advantage. The first part is true, I have a "/stuck" macro, which I use when my ships are rendered immobile by pebbles and such.

I believe that the person who filled up this report was not in earnest, conveying the story to look as unfavourably as possible towards my ship. I also would like to say that deleting a $2 bil worth of ship and equipment is a bit of an overkill, considering that my actions have been aimed at freeing my ship from multiple asteroid jams, not to gain unfair advantages by rendering my ship impossible to hit.

Trying to understand the sanction, I have started a Skype conversation with Moveit56. I was provided with these three evidence screenshots:

http://i.imgur.com/sUpJSWi.png
http://i.imgur.com/5wHN93p.png
http://i.imgur.com/pQVIjPM.png

As seen in the above pictures, that's a Ranseur in the Badlands. Unfortunately, a single use of the /stuck command will not get you mobile, most of the time - as most capital ship pilots probably know, that'd be why I used the /stuck macro in the first place. I believe that most capital ship pilots are using /stuck macros as well, for the same purpose.

(09-22-2014, 04:06 AM)Moveit56 Wrote: [ -> ]

*snap*

Consequences:

Hey, what's this. An image of a fight. That's pretty cool. What's that over at the side?
-- stuck stuck stuck stuck stuck stuck stuck

Using a stuck macro in order to jerk your battleship around so certain shots don't hit you is not acceptable. Don't do it. Fight like everyone else does, using something else such as a macro hoping to get an upper hand will get you in pretty big trouble.

Your entire vessel has been deleted.

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If you post in this sanction and are not directly involved or a leader of the accused person's faction be advised that you are consenting to be subjected to the reprisal of my choice which may involve in game repercussions up to a ban. Blaming members of your immediate family, neighbours, friends, pets, and assorted Orcs, Trolls and any other legendary creatures may result in the use of Admin Right #CTE 750AE

I want to challenge this sanction, because I consider it to be unfair and unjust.

I want to prove the legitimate use of the /stuck command, here's how this fight was seen from the opposing side - my counter evidence - (below are chat log pictures, taken after I managed to escape) and I'll be explaining how did I managed to get out of this fight alive:

http://i.imgur.com/Sm5K1Zy.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/PWfX6tY.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/8GKxKUd.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/KF82OpU.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/NtTKUmy.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Jv2yTjK.jpg

Basically, the admin post states that I have made my ship unhittable, "so certain shots don't hit you", hinting that to be the reason for my successful escape. I am not aware how a fighter standing at almost point blank range could miss a battleship which is literally occupying half of his screen (as seen in the 3rd sanction evidence screenshot). Not to mention the /stuck command itself is made in such a way that moves your ship a tiny bit backwards, up and left, basically moving me towards the center of his screen (taking screenshot 3 as reference).

Another misleading statement, "hoping to get an upper hand" - I just wanted to get my ship moving (forward) again, as you can see in my screenshots, I have escaped via Cloak, after manually disengaging my shield to provoke a hailstorm of CD's.

In our skype conversation, we have basically discussed about two things: how my macro had an adverse effect on the encounter (Moveit56's point) versus why did you deleted my whole ship (my point).

Here's the important part of our discussion.

Quote:So plainly. What exactly did I do, how it affected the interaction, and how did this effect influenced the overall result of this interaction, please?
[09:15:59] titan titan: After all, I guess this is what you discussed, when you decided upon it, right?
[09:17:31 | Editat 09:18:03] Conrad (Moveit56)/Admin: You've used something which appears to be a macro which uses the stuck command multiple times in a row.

During PvP, this chain of commands would offset your vessel randomly making you slightly more difficult to hit than normal. This becomes problematic to people who are trying to fight fairly when one tries to get an advantage.

You've mentioned counter-evidence?
[09:20:47] titan titan: This is the effect. How did this effect, as you put it, influenced the end result of the fight?
[09:20:50] titan titan: After all, it must have had a huge impact, judging by the severity of the sanction.
[09:22:55] titan titan: My counter evidence is SS taken after the battle (SS of the chat), having dsace log to further back it up (mostly for the time, I hate that time chat thing ingame - I keep it off)
[09:24:03] titan titan: I would like if you'd be kind enough to present the sanction evidence aswell.
[09:25:26] Conrad (Moveit56)/Admin: http://imgur.com/sUpJSWi
http://imgur.com/5wHN93p
http://imgur.com/pQVIjPM
[09:26:00] titan titan: În 23.09.2014, la 9:19, titan titan a scris:
> This is the effect. How did this effect, as you put it, influenced the end result of the fight?
Please, answer to this question too.
[09:30:09] titan titan: Well?
[09:33:50] Conrad (Moveit56)/Admin: The end has no bearing on what the sanction was for.
[09:42:16] titan titan: Then you sanctioned me nothing. Here's what happened. A small rock was inside my ship (rendered it immobile). I used unstuck to get past it for a couple of seconds. Considering the enemy had 15 ships or so, the damage they failed to land (assuming that is ludicrous due to the size of a Ranseur) is marginal at best, more likely no damage output was lost.
[09:49:21] titan titan: Hopefully, the SS I got corroborated with the chat (for time stamps) will prove you they lost no damage (I have used the thing for like 5s for the entire fight combined).
[09:54:50 | Editat 09:55:03] Conrad (Moveit56)/Admin: Next time, don't fly into the badlands. The issue won't come up again.
[10:04:43] titan titan: Next time, don't delete people's ships for nothing.

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[20:50:02] Conrad (Moveit56)/Admin: If you don't want to accept it, that is your decision.
[20:50:06 | Editat 20:50:15] titan titan: Would have it had a difference?
[20:52:10] titan titan: [20:50] Conrad (Moveit56)/Admin:

<<< If you don't want to accept it, that is your decision.
Honestly, I want is my ship back. Not to cause you frustration. You see something as you see it, I see the same thing in the following way. I lost a 2 bil ship for trying to move my ship through the badlands - and by no means interrupting the guy who made the screenshots.
[20:52:26] titan titan: He was chasing a different target the entire time (Nea.Caisa), in all screen shots.

We've kept discussing about it for a while, getting to no result.

Considering the lack of an offence (haven't gained any advantages by trying to get my ship moving in the Badlands - that's the purpose of the /stuck command, right?) and the deletion of a ship worth $2 bil and several weeks of time, would you please restore my ship?

Regards,

titanbot

(09-23-2014, 08:12 PM)titanbot Wrote: [ -> ]I am, or better said, was the owner of Andrea. I was told I have been sanctioned for using a "/stuck" macro while attempting to gain an unfair advantage. The first part is true, I have a "/stuck" macro, which I use when my ships are rendered immobile by pebbles and such.

Quote:Cheating in video games involves a video game player using non-standard methods for creating an advantage beyond normal gameplay, usually to make the game easier.

Even wikipedia gives you a pretty good definition of this, wouldnt have expected that one.
Even if you do not consider it to be a difference to use your macro or to type the /stuck command a lot of times, it is, considering that someone who does not do this will need a lot more time for the same amount of /stucks. Which means that you gain an advantage over another player, which is exactly the reason for rule 6. THe standard punishment for this ranges from deleting one ship, to deleting the whole account, to banning everything you own for all eternity. We only chose the first option because you did not harm others with this and it didnt really change the outcome. However, its the principle that counts, so if you cheat, you lose.

(09-24-2014, 06:17 AM)Jansen Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-23-2014, 08:12 PM)titanbot Wrote: [ -> ]I am, or better said, was the owner of Andrea. I was told I have been sanctioned for using a "/stuck" macro while attempting to gain an unfair advantage. The first part is true, I have a "/stuck" macro, which I use when my ships are rendered immobile by pebbles and such.

Quote:Cheating in video games involves a video game player using non-standard methods for creating an advantage beyond normal gameplay, usually to make the game easier.

Even wikipedia gives you a pretty good definition of this, wouldnt have expected that one.
Even if you do not consider it to be a difference to use your macro or to type the /stuck command a lot of times, it is, considering that someone who does not do this will need a lot more time for the same amount of /stucks. Which means that you gain an advantage over another player, which is exactly the reason for rule 6. THe standard punishment for this ranges from deleting one ship, to deleting the whole account, to banning everything you own for all eternity. We only chose the first option because you did not harm others with this and it didnt really change the outcome. However, its the principle that counts, so if you cheat, you lose.

Hello,

Thank you for your reply. About my sanction you said, and I quote:

Quote:Which means that you gain an advantage over another player, which is exactly the reason for rule 6. THe standard punishment for this ranges from deleting one ship, to deleting the whole account, to banning everything you own for all eternity.

If that is the case, deletion of a ship is the minimum punishment while cheating is the easiest penalty for a cheating player - and I should be thankful.

However, there happens to be another cheating sanction, roughly in the same time scale:
http://discoverygc.com/forums/showthread.php?tid=120934

So, I'll quote you again.

Quote:We only chose the first option because you did not harm others with this and it didnt really change the outcome. However, its the principle that counts, so if you cheat, you lose.

This is what happened during that encounter:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDOAtMmeKro

So, while the sanctioned player attempted to gain an unfair advantage, but didn't managed to gain it (it didn't work out for him), I assume it's the principle that counted. He cheated as well, it's written in the sanction thread, and he lost... the guns.

I hate to say it, but this thing is just double standardizing - I used a /stuck macro to get out of an asteroid field, and I had to lose my ship for that.

The guy in the video rams while EK-ing, gets CD'd midway so he won't escape (kudos to Remi.Gaillard) - which is pretty obvious, I wasn't trying to get unfair advantages there - and the punishment is loss of guns.

I'm trying to show you the ridiculousness of the situation. You delete a ship for something unintentional, but delete only the guns for something done on purpose - either way, a mild offence in both cases as you said in this thread and your colleague in the other sanction thread. This isn't about who's right and who's wrong, and by no means I want you to delete the poor guy's ship. I would like a fair consideration from you, and if you didn't delete his ship, I'd very much like my ship back.

Regards,

titanbot

Hi!

Don't know if I should be posting here, but I was one of the dudes shooting at dreadnought 'Andrea' in the badlands.

I arrived mid-pews, but from what I saw the dreadnought was indeed very stuck, at times wedged in so it couldn't move at all.

I also didn't miss a single shot due to the /stuck macro. A Ranseur is pretty damn big.

why did you remove my post supporting 'andrea' with an eye-witness account, being one of the people shooting at him?

he did use a stuck macro, but nothing was gained from it in terms of pvp. if he gets sanctioned for this, you should sanction all jump traders using macros for coordinates.

in fact, it would be a lot easier if you banned all use of autohotkey, macros and whatnot altogether, rather than arbitrarily hand out sanctions.

Titan was forced to use /stuck multiple times, he was blocked by an asteroid in the middle of his ship - that wasn't:

Quote:to jerk your battleship around so certain shots don't hit you is not acceptable

No way! By simple logic, how could you do that ... ?! /stuck works only when your ship ain't moving at all so the message on the screen appears only when the script actually executes that function.


We jumped from Texas to NY directly in badlands, forced by two hostile groups, that's why we were there !

Quote:you should sanction all jump traders using macros for coordinates.

That's right, you should BAN them! Everyone uses macros, from jump coordinates to /stuck, /ping and /pingtarget in order to snac at the right moment.

(09-24-2014, 07:16 PM)titanbot Wrote: [ -> ]I'm trying to show you the ridiculousness of the situation. You delete a ship for something unintentional, but delete only the guns for something done on purpose - either way, a mild offence in both cases as you said in this thread and your colleague in the other sanction thread. This isn't about who's right and who's wrong, and by no means I want you to delete the poor guy's ship. I would like a fair consideration from you, and if you didn't delete his ship, I'd very much like my ship back.

Regards,

titanbot

So the macro turned itself on and you had no intention of using it? If you can prove that in any way that is halfway believeable we could reconsider this, otherwise, no.

(09-26-2014, 08:58 AM)Mímir Wrote: [ -> ]why did you remove my post supporting 'andrea' with an eye-witness account, being one of the people shooting at him?

he did use a stuck macro, but nothing was gained from it in terms of pvp. if he gets sanctioned for this, you should sanction all jump traders using macros for coordinates.

in fact, it would be a lot easier if you banned all use of autohotkey, macros and whatnot altogether, rather than arbitrarily hand out sanctions.

He gained the advantage of using a command in a speed a normal player without the use of a different type of program would not have. The outcome of the situation is not important, the intention of using the macro to gain an advantage however, is.

If you have a way to prevent people from using third party software (except for equipping them with the thing people tend to call common sense and the ability to read rules) you are more than welcome to share it. As long as you dont have that way, we cant really do much about it.

(09-26-2014, 10:00 AM)Nutline Wrote: [ -> ]

Quote:you should sanction all jump traders using macros for coordinates.

That's right, you should BAN them! Everyone uses macros, from jump coordinates to /stuck, /ping and /pingtarget in order to snac at the right moment.

Exactly. Report the violation with sufficient evidence and people will get slapped, as long as you do not do so, there is little we can do.


Now in case you have missed this until now, you did not get sanctioned for using the /stuck command. You got sanctioned for using a third party software to gain an unfair advantage over other players, that do not use said software. As I see it, there is little to discuss here, as the outcome of the fight does not matter, its the intention and use of means to gain an advantage, that got you sanctioned.