' Wrote:Also:
I don't want to have to defend myself in an open trial every time some idiot accuses me of rule-breaking when I'm Privateering. I've better things to do. I'd rather let the admins just deal with it more quickly.
But once it's done openly more people would realize that you are allowed to break the normal rp rules they must abide by, and fewer would sanction you, right?
Plus you wouldn't have to defend yourself, the admins could still decide just a quickly.
So open is a win win for your privateer.
' Wrote:There's a good reason that trials are public today, unlike in the dark ages when small groups of judges decided guilt or innocence secretly, then killed the innocent.
Actually, 95% of criminal cases in the US lead to convictions without ever going to trial. It's called a plea bargain, and it's done entirely behind closed doors. The State decides what they want to do to you, then threaten you with far, far worse, and make it look like they're doing you a favor by giving you the punishment they really wanted in the first place. Not a whole lot of public involvement there. In addition, many cases that
do go to trial, the defendant waives his/her right to a trial by jury, and has the Judge decides the case instead. (oddly enough, that's a good idea in some criminal cases...) So, when you get right down to it, there's actually little public involvement in the Criminal court system.
Honestly, though, this is more like a Civil court, where one side is suing for damages from the other party for some sort of wrongdoing. In those cases, the judge alone decides those in every case, often in closed sessions. Again, no real public involvement.
' Wrote:Actually, 95% of criminal cases in the US lead to convictions without ever going to trial. It's called a plea bargain, and it's done entirely behind closed doors. The State decides what they want to do to you, then threaten you with far, far worse, and make it look like they're doing you a favor by giving you the punishment they really wanted in the first place. Not a whole lot of public involvement there. In addition, many cases that do go to trial, the defendant waives his/her right to a trial by jury, and has the Judge decides the case instead. (oddly enough, that's a good idea in some criminal cases...) So, when you get right down to it, there's actually little public involvement in the Criminal court system.
Honestly, though, this is more like a Civil court, where one side is suing for damages from the other party for some sort of wrongdoing. In those cases, the judge alone decides those in every case, often in closed sessions. Again, no real public involvement.
Be careful, he'll march on Washington now.
I like it like this. Calm debate.
What I've been wondering about you Akumabito, is that why don't you just let the case drop? What are you really after?
The sanctions delivered here are light. They have no real effect in the long run. They just sting you enough to make you think twice about your actions in-game. They definitely are not that harsh that you'd go through the trouble you are currently going.
Another one is that what is your great goal in this crusade of yours? The only goal I'm able to identify in your agenda is that sanction reports should be open. What if your wish came true? It would not really help your 3 months old case, would it?
If the violation reports would be public what would happen? I think we have all seen how quickly a thread can grow too big for any sane member to actually read through and argue the case. People just tire of reading and pass judgment based on how they feel at that moment or their perception of the guy being accused. I bet this would promote having the Disco social network in tip top shape even more. Never mind the new guys. Then it really would be about who do you know and how many of them are willing to take your side in this. It really would be trial by forum. How about just cutting the riff-raff and going straight to the polls? Violation report should include polls. Let's present the screens and let people vote. That would be true democracy wouldn't it? A real utopia. No need for admins since we are mature enough to govern ourselves.
Please state your agenda plainly Akumabito if you have one. Just concise and tangible goals what the Forums and Server should be like if you had your way.
Only you can know if the sanction you got was fair or not. It's not even relevant anymore (you have served your time). Would it really make all things right if the Admins would issue a public apology to you? What then? That would be it? Or should they all resign? Where Igiss would find all of a sudden admins to fill their places? It takes time to groom people to their positions. One of the problems as I see it is that you think you are fixing things while I think you are only tearing apart. The current apparatus for governing Disco is far from perfect but believe me I've seen far worse in other games and forums.
It takes grace to forgive the wrong done to you and move on. Forgiveness can bring great release. Why not opt for this?
' Wrote:Only you can know if the sanction you got was fair or not.
Me and the admin who gave it. If they can do it once, they can do it again and again, and take any personal grudge out via the sanction process when they get a chance, right? Should that be allowed? Is that the kind of admin you want here?
The way to prevent that abuse is the same way all the civilized countries have done it, open trials, open evidence.
Great men have fought and died for the right to a fair trial, why not honor that here?
An even better choice would be to give the accused the choice. Don't want it, don't get it. Want some transparancy, get it.
A win/win.
YES. I'd rather go with the current system than the transparency Inc you are advocating.
Sure they can hammer you again. Just don't get into trouble and give them an excuse. The keyword I have for you in your post is why would they hold a personal grudge against you? Have you done anything to anger them?
One of the problems here is that this whole server operates with volunteers, The gamers and the admins alike. And given the maturity level seen in the server and here in forums there is not such thing as a fair and open trial. In the current system some unjust sanctions are given, but I think it still largely works. Do your time, think about what you did and move on. It really is not such a big deal. Nobody is going to Bastille for real. If it was for real then I would take your stance, but it really, really... really is just a game you are willingly playing.
And I think you are given great mercy here in the forums by admins. In other forums you'd be thrown out ages ago. And guess what? Nobody would have cared really. Because the age old rule in servers and forums is that "You either play by the house rules or get out."
If I actually got to decide I would revoke your posting rights here in the forum and let you play instead. It might do you some good.
How about answering the rest of the points, like "What would be Disco like if you had your way?"
' Wrote:Have you done anything to anger them?
Yes, I lobbied against the right of factions to pvp whore indies oorp based solely on ship selection.
The problem with doing your time and thinking about what you've done is that when it was an undeserved sanction you think about what the admins did and you lose all respect for them. I think even the people who cheered the sanction because they didn't like me personally recognize what the admins did and it cheapens the process, although most won't admit it.
The other thing is that after three months I finally got my appeal verdict from Del, his verdict? I deserved it for my forum posts. If I deserved it for something else then I should be sanctioned for something else, right? Not sanctioned for one thing when the real reason was another, although Dels response lacked detail and sincerity, it left more questions than answers.
What would the forum be like if I got my way? Far better I believe. open sanctions would better illustrate the rues, and the required evidence, it would erase those questions about why this guy got sanctioned and this other guys violation was ignored.
A fairer, more open forum is a better forum.
Quote:Example of what I am saying:
Title: [AFA]Sousuke.Patro
Subtitle: Acting as a terrorist.
Now, then, that would show here, and no doubt someone would see it and classify me as a terrorist rule breaker, regardless of what the thread truly said or what the screens really showed.
In my opinion, that would be a very narrow minded thought. I for one, don't care what people who judge others by a simple line in a sanction report title, think of me. I also can't think of anything they could do to prevent me from having fun online. The people you play with the most, are the people who know you the best. You'll have to have a real lousy personality if they stab you in the back for a simple rule violation report.
So my view on this, it's ok as it is. Sometimes others can see what you may have done, but so what? The only thing they can do is to be more alert when you're around.
I rather like Bacon's suggestion adds anonymity to things, which is good cause it stops people making assumptions about people.
Oh and its only a game.
Fine Akumabito. That's your view about the issue. But it does not change really anything how things work. The basics are still there. They make the rules, change them on a whim if they want to, ban me, you and the every other guy they just don't personally like. It's ENTIRELY in their powers and it wouldn't even be wrong in the big picture of things. And guess what? I'm totally wiling to play by their rules. If I wouldn't like how things are done around here I would have left long time ago. But by acting as jerks the admins would just empty the server and kill Disco.
And this is where you miss the mark. So what if some of the sanctions are wrong? It happens, people make mistakes. It's not like anybody got hurt for real. If you can't see that then you are way too obsessed about the whole thing.
By making your Alamo here in way you have been doing it only has the opposite effect. You are making hard-liners out of more moderate guys who might have initially shared your sentiments.
I'm finally done. I think you have made your point already. And so have I.
There really is nothing more to talk about anymore.