So, here's an interesting tidbit.
Regarding smuggler and lawful interactions - how much protection are we giving either party rules-wise. For example, we all know that the following line:
Quote:4.4 Every char must have only one type of ID equipped and they must play to that ID.
is used to cover situations where a player who is engaged by a hostile party combat-docks on the attacker's base. The best example where this situation is very obvious is a battle happening between OCs and Corsairs in either Gamma or Alpha, where a freelancer ID mercinary is hired and, upon getting shot, they decide to dock on their own target's base in order to escape.
Now this particular line has never been used when it comes to smugglers. If a smuggler comes out from the lane and is encountered by lawfuls, they make a run for the mooring point. This is why in most cases and in most manuals you will find that it is more important to intercept smugglers at gates via tlagsnet. Players who fly off the lanes and manage to sneak in are thusly rewarded with a bigger chance to dock before succumbing to enemy fire.
That is, if we assume that 4.4 does not apply to smugglers.
I am more interested in what happens after this has been done. How much protection is the smuggler given rules-wise. Once they undock, they are fair game for an attempt at applying the ''Levy Fines'' line on lawful IDs. The issue here is that at this point the transport is empty or with recently bought cargo.
Quote:4.2 Demands should be reasonable and only one monetary or cargo demand can be issued during each piracy interaction.
With this interpretation, we can (again) assume that the player has out-played the lawful forces and cannot be fined for more than the worth of their current cargo. In other words, the lawfuls, presumably, cannot demand the smuggler pay a fine that is equal to the cargo they just delivered. The cargo is long gone, after all. The player docked and the ''encounter'' or ''interaction'' presumably ended.
That is one grey area. The other regards 4.2 in general. In most cases you will see a smuggler be told to drop the contraband and pay a fine. If this was a unlawful ID pirating a trader - they would get sanctioned as you may not in any case issue a demand that exceeds the profit of the player.
I would like this to be elaborated a bit more and, hopefully, the 4.2 rule be amended to mention fines. This would make smuggling less punishing and in turn would allow lawful players to have more things to do in the offtime between Storta raids.
Now let us jump back to 4.3 for a moment. When a smuggler successfully docks at a base, say - under fire by the lawfuls, the interaction ends. In most cases a player will log off, but in the few times they undock - the lawful party opens up on them as if the interaction continues. If not - they are fined and the situation as described above resumes.
The question in this case is if docking under fire for a smuggler 'concludes' the engagement. Or will they fair game if they undock. And if yes - can they dock back in that case, given they are not smuggling anymore and the regular 4.4 would apply. There is a certain video I am in the process of making and double-checking the green team's as well as the community's thoughts on this will prevent unnecessary edits.
(04-23-2018, 07:41 AM)sindroms Wrote: [ -> ]So, here's an interesting tidbit.
Regarding smuggler and lawful interactions - how much protection are we giving either party rules-wise. For example, we all know that the following line:
Quote:4.4 Every char must have only one type of ID equipped and they must play to that ID.
is used to cover situations where a player who is engaged by a hostile party combat-docks on the attacker's base. The best example where this situation is very obvious is a battle happening between OCs and Corsairs in either Gamma or Alpha, where a freelancer ID mercinary is hired and, upon getting shot, they decide to dock on their own target's base in order to escape.
Can you more clarify that? Or give links with clarifaing. Im always thinked this rule just for one ID per char, and not for regulation this situations. Cannot understand how this linked, to be honestly.
I think that the following:
3.3 OOC (Out of Character) chat and behavior in Local/System Chat
is more relevant for that situation in specific - docking on a presumably hostile base, but yes.
Concretely to this theme - this all in really important for smuggling? I have really interesting interactions only on route, not near of any mooring points. This is mostly about peoples who non-intentionaly smuggling because dont read the laws, real smugglers rarely get in described situations.
Btw about 4.4. - How i said, dont think this is relevant to this situations, and if we are look on this from 3.3. - if smuggler combat-docked to smuggling end point(!) this is his RP, i mean, if base buy smuggled commodity, this is mean it have hideouts and grey docks on it, where for lawfuls hard to track smuggler.
If he logoff after this - hilarious, but this is smugglers RP too - he are hide on deep, because aware about pursuing, this is logically move for criminals.
Obviously i think good regulation for lawful in this moment - make forumRP report, send fine notice to player, move him in criminal database, FR5 him and more, more, more. So, dont see much problems with 4.4 and smugglers, tbh, just dont think this rule even regard to any situations around smuggling, as im said.
About 4.2 - Honestly, think fines should be expensive, and 4.2 shouldnt regards it. Fines are instrument of preventing next crimes and funding of goverments, inRP they should be expensive.
Main difference from piracy, and why piracy should be regulated by 4.2 - piracy can be used for harrasment by setting unreasonable demands to get blue, and logically if you demand more then trader profit - for trader more easy way to be shooted (if compare to IRL truckers, transport have full insurance and crew have escape-pods,so this is good inRP decision, not question of life as love pathetic speaks some peoples)
Dont paying fines have another set of consequenses, like FR5 and shooting in sight by law-enforcers. I'm think 4.2 regarding fines only if this used by filthy cop to get fines for non-existing crime. Some sort of lawful piracy, allowed by police RP.
The main issue with smuggling is that the smuggler's goal is to avoid interaction as best as possible. A regular trader doesn't have to, not only because he can meet all the other traders and lawfuls in peace but because if he meets a pirate he won't have to lose all his cargo, pay a fine and leave a house. Because of the punishing mechanics smugglers do whatever they can to avoid everyone, including player list checking, using alternate routes, logging off when it's too hot, flying offplane, etc.
There are already so many ways to avoid interaction so when you encourage someone to do it, it's no wonder they go for it. I agree punishing them should be less strict in order to, at least a little bit, make them not use the abovementioned ways to just get from point A to point B singleplayer mode. This game is based around player interaction after all, without it we're playing open singleplayer.
A smuggler who quick docks with unlawful cargo, on a planet with police in pursuit AND then immediately after selling his cargo goes back out into the the planet orbit, is stupid and sucks at role playing. He should have no protection, he should be an open shoot on sight target for any of the pursuing officers.
Any decent role player would, after making a successful delivery, log off and play another character. Really good RPers, knowing that they have been spotted carrying contraband would probably rename the Ship.
Players should, play to the Role of your character and not to the rules of the game.
But. Avoiding of interactions, this is purpose of smugglers! Dont know about another players, im have my fun when smuggle relics in Hatten, even i didnt leave any chances to lawfuls catch me. And, anyway some interaction still exist, mostly on route to bypass depot. If you are catched you are bad smuggler. All fun in it - have feeling of lawfuls can get you and punishment would be hard. If this would be just..small fine.. HAH, say where i can buy season ticket.
Im understand your position, but dont think this is somehow will affect players who smuggle in regular base. If punishment would be small, for why i will play smuggler RP? this is never profitable in any way. Spice of illegality only thing which make sense of it. And you think this is problem.
Edit: What i want say - sense in smuggling indeed in avoiding interaction in case when another player hunt you. Same for some guerilla actions this is some sort of fun for hiding side too, and if we are refuse from this ways, maybe better make text-RPG instead of 3d space?
Edit 2: What we are REALLY need, this is police players. Look on Rheinland, this is smugglers paradise, and no cops to really control it. When i smuggle in same time when RFP plays, this was mostly interesting my smuggler experience.
(04-23-2018, 07:41 AM)sindroms Wrote: [ -> ]Quote:4.2 Demands should be reasonable and only one monetary or cargo demand can be issued during each piracy interaction.
That is one grey area. The other regards 4.2 in general. In most cases you will see a smuggler be told to drop the contraband and pay a fine. If this was a unlawful ID pirating a trader - they would get sanctioned as you may not in any case issue a demand that exceeds the profit of the player.
I would like this to be elaborated a bit more and, hopefully, the 4.2 rule be amended to mention fines. This would make smuggling less punishing and in turn would allow lawful players to have more things to do in the offtime between Storta raids.
Lawfuls and pirates should not be put under same category when it comes to rules. There is crucial difference between them - pirate can demand money for any cargo or even from empty ship. Lawfuls can demand fines and confiscation only for very limited list of contraband, and prices of major commodities reflect that.
Restricting lawfuls to choose only cargo confiscation or fine would make playing lawful, especially cop, incredibly immersion breaking. Like "Hello dear slaver, I caught you. So now let me decide if I want a fine and let you deliver these poor slaves to their final destination, or I will try to save them (by letting you dock and risking you will not undock, log out, later just rename to avoid consequences and continue your business) but let you go unharmed even by fine".
Who wants to play that? That´s more the tag game which children play on the playground than roleplaying a law enforcement unit. Law enforcement roleplay and especially police one is the most restricted roleplay already, restricting it even more will definitely not raise interest. Especially when it comes to police faction which are already in position of just "more ZOI and ships restricted military".
The consequences are already limited when it comes to smuggling because we do not have game mechanics for imprisonment, so even the repeated offenders of most disgusting stuff like slavery have easy way out by just cooperating with lawfuls when caught and paying the fines.
If there is really need for any more restriction, put it on how much per cargo unit can the fine be so there won´t be ridiculously high fines like tens of millions for smuggling freighter. Nothing more is needed in this regard.
I agree even if a smuggler docks sells off cargo and undocks with an empty hold or legit cargo, fines should still be enforced if they were scanned with contraband. I personally would not speed dock after being caught, would stop have an interaction and pay the fines, dump cargo etc. But i can understand were sindroms is coming from, unless you have proof to back up your claims of spotting them with contraband things could get messy in some situations. For example if the lawful did not manage to get a screenshot of the illegal cargo, and tries to fine a player after they undock without the cargo and no proof they even had anything illegal. If an officer tries to fine them, or they run and an officer/navy/military ship opens fire on the fleeing smuggler, then said smuggler tries to report them for attacking them for the wrong, or no legit reasons. They might not have proof they seen them smuggling, which in turn makes a mess for the admins, and would get the lawful player an unwarranted sanction. Not sure if admins can sift through game files to see what the smuggler has recently dropped on the planet or not. And well if you get a runner that speed docks in time, it is very hard to catch a guncam of the illegal cargo. Many probably fear getting caught due to a possible fr5 from getting caught too much, then get rep hacked on a rep sheet they may have spent many hours building, not to mention on a ship that has maybe been fully mapped as well. I know many feel well if you get an fr5 just delete and start a new character. Not a desirable thing to do when you have spent hours/days/weeks building a character, and like my main smuggling ship would never want to change the name. Especially if it is a name you have carried on a ship for many years. It's a very hard balance between hour far smugglers can be punished and being too easy on them. I know most players would just ask for simple fines paid, cargo dropped. But some officials do like to push for fr5 to be put on ships sometimes. And yes i know that is usually done to ships who repeatedly break laws way too much. But it does scare a lot of smugglers into not wanting to be caught at all so they do not lose the time they have spent on their ship. Not to mention to intentionally fly up to a lawful player "Hey scan me i have contraband!" makes absolutely no sense at all in RP if you are a smuggler. I know i have seen so many players complain about smuggling and smugglers because they feel smugglers intentionally avoid interaction. Well duh that is why it is called smuggling. Smuggling does not mean you want to get caught and try and pvp with a transport against fighters/bombers/cruisers/battleships. That would make no sense at all in an RP environment anyways. But with so many "make bottlenecks" and "remove this and that" like jumpholes and alternate routes so you can force interaction would not work. Would kill off smuggling and probably cause some to stop playing at all. Rules need tweaking for sure like sindroms is suggesting. Some other changes could be nice too, like what was mentioned about people abusing the player list to avoid, or log out seeing lawfuls in an area. One solution i think for that would be to remove the systems from the player list. You can see who is one, but no one anywhere could tell what systems players are in. Would put a stop to many aspects that are abused by it. Examples, smugglers logging to not get caught, they would have to take their chances with the gates or jumpholes. No crappy RP from players claiming "I seen you in our system and you are not supposed to be there" even though the player was cloaked. Then they claim i seen you on long range scanners which is crap RP in my opinion. Your ship's scanner is the only range you should see in RP. It would also prevent those who abuse the player list for shadow logging to go after certain players they like to harass. I know many will complain they cannot tell where all the action is so they can log on a ship in that area. But i think it would make people get off their butts and fly around more, maybe do patrols like lawfuls should be. Meh i know went a little off the main topic, but came to mind as i was typing the first part. So sue me. : )
My opinoin on smuglers is that police players shuld do EXACTLY what NPC police do: "drop your contraband and you may go" (alternativly , pay fine and keep cargo) , not both .
There is no GAMEPLAY reason smugler shuld accept BOTH fine and cargo loss ,so thats why he will avoid any contact and use every dirty trick , curent rules force him to do that .
Offer smugler REASONABLE choice , and he will act resonably , otherwise dont cry why its response is: "kill me it it cheaper" .
And people please , dont use "it dont make sense that cop alowes smugler to keep contraband" , many other things have no sense (capital ships cant kill snubs therefore capital ships FLEE as soon they notice snub , vapital ships bigger from planets ,snub can bump in to capital without suffering any damage , etc, etc ,etc) , but they are still there .
If you just have to insist that you cant alowe them to roam with contraband ,make them pay fine(which shuld not be bigger than HALF of contraband destination price), and then escort them to place where they intend to sell cargo , where they will be "forced to unload their dirty contraband" (while player will actualy seel cargo for optimal price, in RP it counts as cargo is confiscated) .
Everyone happy . This way , police will actualy ESCORT smugler to destination, he has lost half of profit , but at least he isbmot in total loss.and he is safe from other cops (but not from pirates) .