Is there anyone else who'd like to see the ability to jump transports with the JD4 again? They seem to be pretty useless. There is nothing to do with it, when is anyone ever going to use it for jumping to attack, or retreat, with only smaller ships? I know it can be done, but seems a waste to only allow for that.
I know the typical arguments against, that it reduces traditional trade, but it allowed for other things too. So, would there be any way to have a limited jump ability for jumping 2-3 transports max per jump? That way one ship doesn't jump too many, if you wanted to jump a lot of ships, you'd need several jump capable ships per group.
I have also been thinking on how to prevent abuse. Perhaps we could say that when someone attempts to start a charge, the notice goes out system, or even server wide, with a grid location. As if to say, you can't hide such a thing, all modern scanners will detect anything like that within a system. That way whenever someone tries using one of these drives for convoys, potential opponents will be able to make a fair attempt to find them. If they are close enough, they may find such a group before the charge is complete, leaving a chance to block the jump, pirate the ships etc. Or the option to add a notice when a ship jump's into a spot, giving away its location, is possible too. Both notices would make it more likely to interact with jumping ships.
And in many cases jump capable ships can use docking modules, so they could take additional snubs with those. Which leads me to say, allow freighters to dock on ships with DM's! So in theory, a JD4 ship could take 2-3 transports, and couple of accompanying snubs or freighters via docking module (depending on how many they can mount) to unload at atmo only dock points. I think you'd see more use out of JD4's.
So as an example, a jump ship could be used to jump a couple of transports and a miner to a mining zone, and out. Since they have longer charge times, if a notice goes out when they start, anyone around looking or nearby will see a grid location and be able to try to find them to investigate. Won't take long before people know the jump ships and try to anticipate them. At least the jump trading won't be impossible to find or stop, and technically authorities could claim they are picking up 'jump signatures' and start screening ships jumping in their space to confirm if they're legal. In pirate's cases, they could still get to pirate miners and jumpship just so they could be allowed to mine and leave in peace.
TL;DR - allow jumping small groups of transports but display an in-game notice of the jump locations to be fair to those looking to cash in on the trade/activity.
Reading this long binski text, a new idea appeared.
Transport problem, that they break economy with regular cargo when jumping with jd4
And at the same time pobs were made for jd4 transport deliveries.
Solution: making exception that allows jumping transports filled with pob supplies (or empty)
Taking into account that economy guys calculate routes while considering time only in one way. No harm would be done with ability to jump empty transports.
"And at the same time pobs were made for jd4 transport deliveries."
What? since when?
(10-01-2020, 04:20 AM)Megaera Wrote: [ -> ]"And at the same time pobs were made for jd4 transport deliveries."
What? since when?
Since their cretion in times when jd4 transporting was a thing together with 20k+ cargo space barge. We still have pob outdated recipes which are 8 years old or more, which were considering it.
Heck, jump drives were added as a thing available in pob.
That one is rather obvious, to wit, before the current prohibitions were emplaced.
Star Enterprises used their Jumper for that exclusively.
(10-01-2020, 04:13 AM)darkwind Wrote: [ -> ]Reading this long binski text, a new idea appeared.
Transport problem, that they break economy with regular cargo when jumping with jd4
And at the same time pobs were made for jd4 transport deliveries.
Solution: making exception that allows jumping transports filled with pob supplies (or empty)
Taking into account that economy guys calculate routes while considering time only in one way. No harm would be done with ability to jump empty transports.
Well that's why I suggested limit it to 2 or 3 transports per jump. With the few minutes of charging for a JD4, the notice would give you a chance to go try to catch a jump. It costs 9 million per 2 jumps (round trip). Jumping transports would likely be willing to pay 5 mil a jump. If you could jump 3 ships that's maybe 15 mil, 6 of which is profit, per round trip. If a group is pirated, that could mean paying another 3-5 mil each. I don't think limited jump trading/supplying would actually break the economy.
Jumping 3 transports (even 5k'ers) would not quite be like it was with jumping 2 barges plus a fleet of Salvagers, as fun as that was (+ one Pelican). That adds a little extra cost and limitation to base supply if you chose to jump supply. But this is a very expensive option. The cost of the hyperspace scanner, ship to use it, cost of the JD4, altogether looking at 1 - 1.5 billion credits or more. All to jump supply a POB? That's fine by me, it should be an option, especially for bases in higher risk areas.
That does raise a point though with regards to displaying location of a jumping ship with the notice its forming a hyperspace breach,
and when it arrives at its destination; If you jump directly to a base, the location would be given away. You might not want to supply secret bases that way. You might jump to the same system but still a little bit off to not be too specific. That's if the notice becomes visible to anyone on the server. If made only system wide, you'd have to be in the system to get the info. Personally I support making the opening of the hyperspace breach a server wide notice. and the arrival notice system wide. The other issue is, should it only effect JD4's? You could say that since they open the biggest breaches, they are the ones that are easily detected...(?). But it would let people try to catch illegal jump trading if they saw all jumps from afar.
It also has occurred to me that a bot could probably be used to monitor the server notices that inform of jumps and let people use dischord to see them as notifications, so they can quickly log on if a jump in a certain area is of interest to them.
The notice might read like "WARNING: A hyperspace breach is being opened by ShipX at Cortez, D2"
and "ShipX has emerged from a hyperspace breach at Provence, C6"
(10-01-2020, 06:07 AM)Binski Wrote: [ -> ] (10-01-2020, 04:13 AM)darkwind Wrote: [ -> ]Reading this long binski text, a new idea appeared.
Transport problem, that they break economy with regular cargo when jumping with jd4
And at the same time pobs were made for jd4 transport deliveries.
Solution: making exception that allows jumping transports filled with pob supplies (or empty)
Taking into account that economy guys calculate routes while considering time only in one way. No harm would be done with ability to jump empty transports.
Well that's why I suggested limit it to 2 or 3 transports per jump. With the few minutes of charging for a JD4, the notice would give you a chance to go try to catch a jump. It costs 9 million per 2 jumps (round trip). Jumping transports would likely be willing to pay 5 mil a jump. If you could jump 3 ships that's maybe 15 mil, 6 of which is profit, per round trip. If a group is pirated, that could mean paying another 3-5 mil each. I don't think limited jump trading/supplying would actually break the economy.
Jumping 3 transports (even 5k'ers) would not quite be like it was with jumping 2 barges plus a fleet of Salvagers, as fun as that was (+ one Pelican). That adds a little extra cost and limitation to base supply if you chose to jump supply. But this is a very expensive option. The cost of the hyperspace scanner, ship to use it, cost of the JD4, altogether looking at 1 - 1.5 billion credits or more. All to jump supply a POB? That's fine by me, it should be an option, especially for bases in higher risk areas.
That does raise a point though with regards to displaying location of a jumping ship with the notice its forming a hyperspace breach, and when it arrives at its destination; If you jump directly to a base, the location would be given away. You might not want to supply secret bases that way. You might jump to the same system but still a little bit off to not be too specific. That's if the notice becomes visible to anyone on the server. If made only system wide, you'd have to be in the system to get the info. Personally I support making the opening of the hyperspace breach a server wide notice. and the arrival notice system wide. The other issue is, should it only effect JD4's? You could say that since they open the biggest breaches, they are the ones that are easily detected...(?). But it would let people try to catch illegal jump trading if they saw all jumps from afar.
It also has occurred to me that a bot could probably be used to monitor the server notices that inform of jumps and let people use dischord to see them as notifications, so they can quickly log on if a jump in a certain area is of interest to them.
The notice might read like "WARNING: A hyperspace breach is being opened by ShipX at Cortez, D2"
and "ShipX has emerged from a hyperspace breach at Provence, C6"
Tbh I do not see jump trading for transports with regular cargo as a possible thing in your version in anyway.
They calculate proffits based on time to delivery stuff, allowing transports with regular cargo to be jumped
will break economy schemes even if one such transport is allowed.
I could try to think necessary limitations to make it possible, but I already find them too.... hard/multiple in amounts to make possible even for one 5k transport jumped with regular cargo. I can already tell that it will require veeeeeery big increase in jump drive charge besides creating multiple other restrictions with calculated on a run formula to fit the idea. It is just not worthy the trouble.
While allowance for jumping empty transports or filled with pob materials fits much better. Having no cargo during jump that makes possible to gain proffit, it will not break any economy schemes. It will make just small positive impact in making economy schemes actually used slightly better, when no good cargo exists for some routes on a way back and that's it. Economy guys do not take the time to go back into account anyway.
Forming as player request my idea:
Quote:Related thread where idea was born and discussed: here
Desciption: I propose coding exception, that allows all transports being jumped by JD4, if they have no cargo or filled only with PoB related supplies.
Effect #1: It finally resolves problem, that all recipes for pobs were created in times when JD4 transports jumping with 20k cargo barges were possible. Fixing the problem of pob recipes, which are heavily outdated by 8+ years, and have way too many materials being asked for current situation.
Effect #2: Roleplay people would be happy being delivered across sirius to reach their destination.
Effect #3: There will be no impact for delivery of proffitable cargo(ores and e.t.c.) with transports, except for small positive one. Economy guys do not consider time for return in their schemes and often forget adding any worthy cargo for delivery on a way back. It will make a small positive impact in using such not thoughtfully routes better. And at the same time players will not be able to jump above proffit/sec economy guys planned.
Additional thoughts: In all three aspects I find the change only as positive one. Eliminating one major problem, allowing small comfortable possilibity and having small positive impact to regular trade routes
(10-01-2020, 06:44 AM)darkwind Wrote: [ -> ]Forming as player request my idea:
Quote:Related thread where idea was born and discussed: here
Desciption: I propose coding exception, that allows all transports being jumped by JD4, if they have no cargo or filled only with PoB related supplies.
Effect #1: It finally resolves problem, that all recipes for pobs were created in times when JD4 transports jumping with 20k cargo barges were possible. Fixing the problem of pob recipes, which are heavily outdated by 8+ years, and have way too many materials being asked for current situation.
Effect #2: Roleplay people would be happy being delivered across sirius to reach their destination.
Effect #3: There will be no impact for delivery of proffitable cargo(ores and e.t.c.) with transports, except for small positive one. Economy guys do not consider time for return in their schemes and often forget adding any worthy cargo for delivery on a way back. It will make a small positive impact in using such not thoughtfully routes better. And at the same time players will not be able to jump above proffit/sec economy guys planned.
Additional thoughts: In all three aspects I find the change only as positive one. Eliminating one major problem, allowing small comfortable possilibity and having small positive impact to regular trade routes
Yes but which requires more work? And you don't think that investing 1.5 billion credits into being able to jump other ships isn't fairly earning the ability to increase that profit margin a bit, save some time, and do something cool all in one? The perception that it would result in a mass ditching of regular trading and destroy the economy makes no sense, how much jump trading would need to be done to even pay off the JD4, the large ship that can use it, and a scanner to get the coords yourself? A lot. You'll still get caught at some point if you do it that often. It used to be viewed that players could actually earn their easier path. Giving the notices at least makes these jump movements trackable and more playable to others.
To me, its not worth it to only include empty ships, or base supplies. I would think it would be harder to restrict jumps by cargo transported than simply limiting the amount of other ships jumping to 3 at max within the radius. Maybe set it to only jump the 3 closest ships, or 3 largest ships (based on cargo) in range.
So if you're in an area where a group was about to jump out, you'd see the notice and location, and eventually be able to get there fast enough to intercept.
Now that opens the door to changing JD4 stats a bit, even adding 1 minute in charge time isn't crazy, and would still be good for trading, and limited tactical jumps into an area. Also they could make it so you'd need to remain still, or at least couldn't enter cruise while charging.
Because you can't offer jumps to traders with these JD4's and that really sucks....but you only need one JD4 ship to whisk around a whole armada of battleships.
Jump trading is inherently about making the maximum about of profit with the least interaction. IMO it should never be brought back in any capacity.