03-21-2007, 02:33 AM
I will pull one quote by Igiss from an unmentionably sad post in the RP forum:
"The ID system cannot fit RP precisely. Not many people tried to act precisely like their NPC allies."
In other words, one should pick an ID that most closely resembles the type of character/faction they wish to create but it does not have to be a carbon copy of the NPCs whom that ID represents. Looking at the currently active factions, the older ones tend to look for more liberty and freedom from their NPC ID in terms of background story and motivations (Helghast, AW, Phantom,) a few older factions are purists (RM, GOR, SF) and most of the newer factions now are purists (KNF, SA, JOS, Brotherhood.) Basically we see two role play philosophies interacting on the forums. Looking at past topics on IDs plus the rules, it appears we are trying to accomodate both philosophies at the same time which breeds vagueness and confustion and therefor conflict and pain in the community. Examples are arguments centered around a faction's identity and proper conduct for said faction. If an ID grants its owner rights for certain role play activities, and those rights are derived from an existing NPC faction, one should not be able to turn around and say "my faction is not related to the NPCs that control my ID, therefore I don't have to heed it." That kind of thinking goes against the whole spirit of using IDs in the first place. Why have an ID that identifies you as a certain type of character if you aren't playing as that type of character?
Now to answer the greater question that vexes us with the Zoner ID, we have to dig deeper. Considering the rules stated on forum and on faction ID, plus the supplimental topic Igiss published just prior to the release of 4.8, there are 2 items that will inevitably cause flaming on these forums:
From New Role Play System, of Discovery Server by Igiss:
"Each ID grants its owner rights for certain roleplay activities (I'll cover this part later). These activities are briefly listed in ID descriptions in-game. For each group I listed above (Military, Police, Trader, Pirate, Terrorist) rights and obligations are nearly same. ID also limits ship types you may use. However, if you join a server faction, you may act differently from what's written in your ID - if your faction requires you so. For example, military cannot attack lawfuls, but in case of war owners of military IDs may attack fighters and even traders of the opposing side."
...
"Traders
IDs: Corporations, IMG, GMG, Zoners.
Allowed: Trade, escort traders, scan for contraband.
Not allowed: Fulfil bounty contracts, participate in military operations and unlawful activities.
Allowed ships: Fighters, Freighters, Transports
IMG, GMG: Can fulfil bounty contracts.
Zoners: Can fulful bounty contracts & participate in military operations (lawful)."
Perhaps this last tidbit is out dated as I don't think the Zoner ID is classified as a trader ID anymore (it can't anymore or Zoners wouldn't be allowed to fly their Juggs.)
At any rate, if this explaination still applies, and affects the published 2007 server rules, it means that a faction can go against the written rules on it's ID if it goes to war with someone (this was the only example Igiss gave on when a faction can override its ID, but he implied others exist too.) I imagine this little bit was added to allow Kusari and Bretonia navies to attack each other's corporate transports, but it could be extended to any other faction that wants to go to war.
So, you carry a navy ID and you want to do something unlawful? Easy, declare war on someone and there you are. Same goes for the AW I guess. They declared war with SA (a lawful faction,) so they can go fight SA unprovoked by overriding the 'lawful clause' in their Zoner ID.
Ok, so AW goes to war with SA because AW has an alliance with HF, a Lane Hacker (loosely affiliated but Hacker guard system owning) faction-who were fighting their arch enemies, the Liberty Navy (SA.) I don't know when the alliance between AW and HF was struck, but I would wonder if anyone was at war when the deal went down or if any other hertofor unmentioned 'conditions for ID override' were met that allowed a lawful faction to ally itself with an unlawful faction.
The result of this duplicity in the rules will be anarchy and render IDs meaningless.
I ask that the admins consider two things to address this problem:
1)Require strict adherance to ID info cards at all times regardless of whether you are individual or player faction.
or
2)Change the Zoner ID to being niether lawful or unlawful and able to participate in either side of a military action. Someone mentioned how the Junker ID is similar to the Zoner ID, but it isn't because they are max hostile to Xenos and Hogosha so that ID doesn't need to be changed.
The first person who takes this post personally and flames it will get a 3 gallon pie in the face from Malaclypse666....you have been warned:cool:
"The ID system cannot fit RP precisely. Not many people tried to act precisely like their NPC allies."
In other words, one should pick an ID that most closely resembles the type of character/faction they wish to create but it does not have to be a carbon copy of the NPCs whom that ID represents. Looking at the currently active factions, the older ones tend to look for more liberty and freedom from their NPC ID in terms of background story and motivations (Helghast, AW, Phantom,) a few older factions are purists (RM, GOR, SF) and most of the newer factions now are purists (KNF, SA, JOS, Brotherhood.) Basically we see two role play philosophies interacting on the forums. Looking at past topics on IDs plus the rules, it appears we are trying to accomodate both philosophies at the same time which breeds vagueness and confustion and therefor conflict and pain in the community. Examples are arguments centered around a faction's identity and proper conduct for said faction. If an ID grants its owner rights for certain role play activities, and those rights are derived from an existing NPC faction, one should not be able to turn around and say "my faction is not related to the NPCs that control my ID, therefore I don't have to heed it." That kind of thinking goes against the whole spirit of using IDs in the first place. Why have an ID that identifies you as a certain type of character if you aren't playing as that type of character?
Now to answer the greater question that vexes us with the Zoner ID, we have to dig deeper. Considering the rules stated on forum and on faction ID, plus the supplimental topic Igiss published just prior to the release of 4.8, there are 2 items that will inevitably cause flaming on these forums:
From New Role Play System, of Discovery Server by Igiss:
"Each ID grants its owner rights for certain roleplay activities (I'll cover this part later). These activities are briefly listed in ID descriptions in-game. For each group I listed above (Military, Police, Trader, Pirate, Terrorist) rights and obligations are nearly same. ID also limits ship types you may use. However, if you join a server faction, you may act differently from what's written in your ID - if your faction requires you so. For example, military cannot attack lawfuls, but in case of war owners of military IDs may attack fighters and even traders of the opposing side."
...
"Traders
IDs: Corporations, IMG, GMG, Zoners.
Allowed: Trade, escort traders, scan for contraband.
Not allowed: Fulfil bounty contracts, participate in military operations and unlawful activities.
Allowed ships: Fighters, Freighters, Transports
IMG, GMG: Can fulfil bounty contracts.
Zoners: Can fulful bounty contracts & participate in military operations (lawful)."
Perhaps this last tidbit is out dated as I don't think the Zoner ID is classified as a trader ID anymore (it can't anymore or Zoners wouldn't be allowed to fly their Juggs.)
At any rate, if this explaination still applies, and affects the published 2007 server rules, it means that a faction can go against the written rules on it's ID if it goes to war with someone (this was the only example Igiss gave on when a faction can override its ID, but he implied others exist too.) I imagine this little bit was added to allow Kusari and Bretonia navies to attack each other's corporate transports, but it could be extended to any other faction that wants to go to war.
So, you carry a navy ID and you want to do something unlawful? Easy, declare war on someone and there you are. Same goes for the AW I guess. They declared war with SA (a lawful faction,) so they can go fight SA unprovoked by overriding the 'lawful clause' in their Zoner ID.
Ok, so AW goes to war with SA because AW has an alliance with HF, a Lane Hacker (loosely affiliated but Hacker guard system owning) faction-who were fighting their arch enemies, the Liberty Navy (SA.) I don't know when the alliance between AW and HF was struck, but I would wonder if anyone was at war when the deal went down or if any other hertofor unmentioned 'conditions for ID override' were met that allowed a lawful faction to ally itself with an unlawful faction.
The result of this duplicity in the rules will be anarchy and render IDs meaningless.
I ask that the admins consider two things to address this problem:
1)Require strict adherance to ID info cards at all times regardless of whether you are individual or player faction.
or
2)Change the Zoner ID to being niether lawful or unlawful and able to participate in either side of a military action. Someone mentioned how the Junker ID is similar to the Zoner ID, but it isn't because they are max hostile to Xenos and Hogosha so that ID doesn't need to be changed.
The first person who takes this post personally and flames it will get a 3 gallon pie in the face from Malaclypse666....you have been warned:cool: