So, yet another tech chart, and another episode of the No Debs for Corsairs Show. This episode we go even farther, having all Civilian weapons removed from use by the Corsairs. I have asked in the past for a reason why Corsairs are not allowed to use Debs, and the only reason I have been given is The Corsairs have Cids. Now, I got to admit, that answer works for me, that is until I see the many examples of other factions having superior equipment, but still being able to have the choice. The many factions that have superior ships, but are still allowed to choice from the Civilian line. The new tech chart leaves the Corsairs as the one and only vanilla faction to not be allowed to use Civilian kit. So I guess removing Gallia from the argument, the Corsairs are up there with the Nomads, SCRA, and AI. Those are the only factions outside of Gallia to not be allowed to use Civilian Kit.
[font=Calibri]Now, my question, as politely as I can ask it, is why this is? I would love to hear an answer that is more than Corsairs have Cids. I am very happy to put this argument down, should I get an answer that is not Corsairs have Cids or Corsair wouldnt use anyone elses tech especially since the second one is absurd. If there is a balance reason, or an rp reason, then Yay, I will be very happy, but as it stands right now, the Corsairs have had the entire civilian line of guns, guns that are available to almost every other faction in Sirius, removed from their use without a reason beside Corsairs have cids.
[font=Calibri]So please discuss, and even better if an admin or two might stop by and explain to the community why this decision was made. I am not against this, if there is good reason for it, but I havent heard a good reason yet. I am not trying to kick up a hornets nest, honestly I am not, but I am fairly certain that is whats going to happen. Its probably been about two years since the sanction that stopped Corsairs from using Debs, and for that whole time, when these things come up, I ask what the reason is, and the answer inevitably comes back, Corsairs have Cids, and I am excepting no different now, but I am hoping, because with all the choice and diversity of character and ships and weapons in our game, I just dont think Corsairs have Cids is an adequate answer.
And just to be clear, Dusty asked me not to post this in the tech chart feedback thread, and instead in General Discussion, so that is what I am doing.
Rather than say the Corsairs have Cids, or that the Corsairs don't use other faction's tech, or that having low-energy consuming Debs on a Titan will create an extremely powerful shield-killer against GBs/Cruisers, I'll simply ask, why -should- the Corsairs use Debs? You haven't given a reason, just asked us not to use the reason 'The Corsairs have Cids'.
So.. Why do they need them?
May I answer your question with a question?
You ask: Why can't I use Debbies.
I ask: Why would you want to use Debbies over Del Cids?
Sounds kinda like you're just annoyed at being excluded. Lets face it, even if you had access to Debbies, how many Corsairs would actually use them? One or two? But as soon as you get Debbies taken away from you, you throw your rattle out of the crib and throw a tantrum?
' Wrote:Rather than say the Corsairs have Cids, or that the Corsairs don't use other faction's tech, or that having low-energy consuming Debs on a Titan will create an extremely powerful shield-killer against GBs/Cruisers, I'll simply ask, why -should- the Corsairs use Debs? You haven't given a reason, just asked us not to use the reason 'The Corsairs have Cids'.
So.. Why do they need them?
Because every other faction in the game has them. And Dab, a Nephthys has the same power plant as the Titan, as well as access to Cids, so, wouldnt your argument be just as valid in removing civilian line kit from the Order?
' Wrote:May I answer your question with a question?
You ask: Why can't I use Debbies.
I ask: Why would you want to use Debbies over Del Cids?
Sounds kinda like you're just annoyed at being excluded. Lets face it, even if you had access to Debbies, how many Corsairs would actually use them? One or two? But as soon as you get Debbies taken away from you, you throw your rattle out of the crib and throw a tantrum?
So, you really dont have a reason why the Sairs cant use Civilian line weapons aside from they shouldnt want to? The Liberty Rogues have the Bargest yes? Should they be excluded from using the Waran?
Corsairs have their own shieldbusters, which are far better than debilitators.
Corsairs have a full shipline, covering every shipclass in the mod with the exception of battlecruisers (which are a hybrid and not really a class of their own).
There's no reason for you to need to use civilian tech as a corsair - use your own stuff ffs.
' Wrote:Because every other faction in the game has them.
Isn't this argument even more baseless than 'They have Cids' as a reason for them not to have Debs? Perhaps if you were able to come up with a legitimate reason as to why Corsairs SHOULD have Debs you may get somewhere. The issue here isn't why they shouldn't, but why they should, and a sufficient answer to that question hasn't been given.
' Wrote:And Dab, a Nephthys has the same power plant as the Titan, as well as access to Cids, so, wouldst your argument be just as valid in removing civilian line kit from the Order?
The Order doesn't have a viable alternative for a shield killer. The only shield killers in the game are the SCRA ones, Gallic ones, Corsair Cids, and the civilian Debs. Order can't use SCRA ones, or Gallic, and Corsair Cids is a little OORP for the Order. That leaves the Debs. If someone were to make an Order-specific shieldkiller line, I'd be more than happy. However, since they haven't done so yet, the Order doesn't have the luxury of two different shield killers. Corsairs have two of their own Cids, Coladas and Tizonas. They currently have the largest choice in shield killers, above any other faction. Before you said 'because every other faction in the game has them.' Well first, this isn't true. Not every faction besides Corsairs can use Debs. Gallic factions for one. Second, if you wish to use that argument, then why shouldn't every faction in the game get two shield killers to chose from, since the Corsairs do? Why shouldn't there be a 600 and 700ms projectile speed version of the Debs, since the other factions have syncing Debs? That's not a legitimate reason to justify the Corsairs getting a third shieldkiller made available to them, especially when their RP says that using non-Corsair technology is OORP.
Personally I haven't seen a reason so far to justify the Corsairs getting Debs. 'Everyone else has one' is an argument that holds no weight, no matter what situation you are in. Games and the real world.
' Wrote:So, you really dont have a reason why the Sairs cant use Civilian line weapons aside from they shouldnt want to?
I don't have a reason. I don't even care. But it's not me you're trying to convince. But your reason for having Debbies seems just as invalid to me as the reasons for Corsairs not to have them.
' Wrote:Isn't this argument even more baseless than 'They have Cids' as a reason for them not to have Debs? Perhaps if you were able to come up with a legitimate reason as to why Corsairs SHOULD have Debs you may get somewhere. The issue here isn't why they shouldn't, but why they should, and a sufficient answer to that question hasn't been given.
I would like a lower drain shield buster available to me, especially when using lighter ships. Say I want to fly an eagle, Cids are not the best load out in the given situation. Other factions are given a choice, why not the Corsairs. Outcasts can choose between Debs and the Inferno, can even use both if they want. The Order can use Cids and Debs (will respond to your comment about that later.) So why cant the Corsairs make a similar choice on lower drain vs higher drain? But I guess you are a believer in the separate but equal doctrine. If someone has something they shouldn't be allowed use of the same as everyone else. Like schools, right? If black people have schools of their own, it's ok that they not be let into school with the white kids right?
' Wrote:The Order doesn't have a viable alternative for a shield killer. The only shield killers in the game are the SCRA ones, Gallic ones, Corsair Cids, and the civilian Debs. Order can't use SCRA ones, or Gallic, and Corsair Cids is a little OORP for the Order. That leaves the Debs. If someone were to make an Order-specific shieldkiller line, I'd be more than happy. However, since they haven't done so yet, the Order doesn't have the luxury of two different shield killers.
If you check the tech chart, the Order is white with the Corsairs, and there is currently an agreement for the Order to use the Cid line, so by your rational they now have three shield busters open to them, more than the Corsairs.
' Wrote:Corsairs have two of their own Cids, Coladas and Tizonas. They currently have the largest choice in shield killers, above any other faction. Before you said 'because every other faction in the game has them.' Well first, this isn't true. Not every faction besides Corsairs can use Debs. Gallic factions for one.
Largest choice, yes yes, I belive I disproved that above. As to Gallia, how do you think they would get Sirian guns in rp Dab?
' Wrote:Second, if you wish to use that argument, then why shouldn't every faction in the game get two shield killers to chose from, since the Corsairs do? Why shouldn't there be a 600 and 700ms projectile speed version of the Debs, since the other factions have syncing Debs?
As I pointed out before, many factions have more than one available to them, but to carry on your logic, shouldn't every faction now have an Inferno type shield busting torpedo gun, because the Outcasts get one? You forgot to mention earlier the amazing gunboat shield killing potential of a couple of ships with infernos.
' Wrote:That's not a legitimate reason to justify the Corsairs getting a third shieldkiller made available to them, especially when their RP says that using non-Corsair technology is OORP.
What is this rp you say where Corsairs dont use other peoples tech? Cause as the leader of the oldest sair faction on the server, as you know, I am exceedingly weak when it comes to our rp. Might I point out that most of our advanced technology comes from the Order, and oh yea, we are thieves, we steal technology. I know its hard to see with all the optics and quantum multiplexer factories on Crete.
Quote:And Dab, a Nephthys has the same power plant as the Titan, as well as access to Cids
The order cannot use corsair weapons without approval.
My personal point of view?
I don't really give a toss.
Corsairs have pretty nice native shield busters. They're really good actually. It's also true that they don't want anyone else to be able to use them.
They also want access to civilian guns like everyone else has.
Oh well.
The Corsairs were given two weapon lines from Vanilla. They got lucky. Far as I'm concerned a Sally and a Cid are to a Wyrm and a Kraken. Not like Outcasts can't use debs because they have two hull busters and the Inferno.
If some nimrod wants to trade his tizzys in because he wants those snazzy 700 speed debs? Well, that's his business. Probably because he feels that Corsair debs suck down too much energy on his Eagle.
Kind of a weird Corsair at that point but, well, we've all wanted to put Wyrms on our Rogue GC fighter at some moment I guess.
Lord knows I flew a Xeno Taiidan at one point. Guess I was drinking.
To be honest I think the whole argument is silly. Though as it stands at this moment it wont budge. But maybe some of the ranting in this thread will budge it.
I've brought the Corsair/Civi thing up for discussion amongst the top hats. We'll see what comes of it.
In the meantime, the 4 Corsairs out there who use civilian guns?
Fear.
Feeeear.