Discovery Gaming Community

Why is this policy in place? What purpose does it serve?

' Wrote:Why is this policy in place? What purpose does it serve?

It has been said in this thread a few times already, not to mention this policy has been in place for at least three years. Oh, yea that was mentioned too.

It is a perk of sorts for official factions, one in which enforcing it is rather.........difficult? Not the word I was looking for but I can't find a word to describe it.

I support giving factions that have posted a creation request and paid their 500m getting a recruitment thread, as that is a sign they are serious in regards to their role play. The number of unofficial factions that appear and disappear is high and having a recruitment thread for each would take up a few pages.

The pros to this is that those factions that are trying to become official will have the same access to new players that official factions do (in theory), thus perhaps helping boost their activity, etc etc. It also limits the number of recruitment threads.

The cons are that some unofficial factions who can't become official due to the 1 faction per ID rule won't be allowed to have them.

It is not difficult for someone to look on the player list ingame, find someone with an unofficial faction tag, talk to them, and ask to join.

Hi there...
I am the CEO of STO

an un-official faction that will be looking for official status soon....

however.. from experience I can tell you that un-official factions do not need a hiring forum..
What we do need is a place to post our faction concepts to refine and get feed back from those that have made faction. This would allow us to toss out our initial concept -- redraft it with the help of those that have done this many times.. and maybe not be turned down when we get players and apply.

To that end -- I am asking if this forum is a place for such?

-Cpt Gorva - CEO of the STO - Poseidon

Yes it is.

' Wrote:The number of unofficial factions that appear and disappear is high and having a recruitment thread for each would take up a few pages.

Having a recruitment thread is much more different then the ban of recruitment in any form in the forums. I see no problem if each unofficial faction have one thread in the Unofficial Factions on Discovery Forums and recruit there or in PM. It wont hurt the official's or the forum space in any way, if you are concerned about wasting forum space for unofficial factions then just remove flood, there are much more useless topics everyday, it is much better then restricting the people who are willing to play...

' Wrote:It is not difficult for someone to look on the player list ingame, find someone with an unofficial faction tag, talk to them, and ask to join.

You can apply the same to the inactive official factions, a bit hard if they not log in the game.......

If you see some unknown tag of some group you will be OORP PMing eager to join? I dont think so. I would just check their topic here and see the faction main ideas,faction policies etc and normally will post in their topic that I am interested in this faction...

To add to what I said before, I will now respond to a number of posts here, then give several practical, personal examples of why this is such a truly awful idea.

' Wrote:What is the fuss about? If the person trully wants to get into the unofficial faction he will ask how to join by posting it faction's thread or via PM.
Those who can't figure it out - their own fault.

Such consumerism! It's not about the consumers, but about the producers. People looking for a new faction don't even see the unofficials as an option, because unofficials, unlike officials, don't even have recruitment threads. It's not that people have difficulty joining the unofficials if they want to join them; it's that the unofficials don't even show up on peoples' radar in the first place.

...
Directing people to official factions is good because:
Off. Faction is more responsible for its members. Really? Unofficials tend to be much more tightly-knit, with far fewer legalistic rules and far more individual responsibility. They know if any individual messes up, they could mess it up for everyone else, whereas if anyone messes up in a larger faction, they'll usually get a token reprimand in order to satisfy the offended party.

Off. Faction has higher roleplay standards. Um... no. Most assuredly not. See: KoF vs. USI. KoF was official. USI was not. Both were active. KoF did not roleplay much if any. USI did. Further reading: BMM vs. AIL, SF vs. QCRF, SA vs. HF (though this last one is rather indirect; there was no officiality at the time, but Liberty Navy factions were banned. HF asked if we could make one and gave a background for it, but were denied, so we went off and made HF as it is today. SA came in, did not ask permission, and flew around almost exclusively in LABCs, Carriers, and Osirises. The admins of the time then came around three months later and officially approved SA - the only faction they'd ever approved - who were, at the time, acting worse than your modern LNS silent reengager).

Leaders are easy to reach and give feedback to, meaning improvement is quicker. Not necessarily true, nor would it necessarily be good if it were. Most of our modern flame wars start in the name of "feedback".

Most of the time off. Factions have more members thus increasing the possible help to new guy. Um. Yes, they do usually have more members. Because they can actually recruit on the forums. They have an unfair competitive advantage. The whole point here is to fix that problem.

Off. Factions are currently responsible with their lore, technology thus losing off. Faction would be bad for general gameplay and so keeping activity above limit is good thing. I... don't get your point here. This is about allowing unofficial factions to compete, not destroying official factions. Of course, if the official faction was inferior, it would lose the competition, and thus the unofficial faction would likely end up becoming official... and so that's a bad thing? It's bad to have a better faction? You'd rather keep worse factions in the name of "they already exist, so they deserve to exist"? You judge them by their existence rather than their contribution? That's much like how this rule is being judged - not by value, but by the fact that it "already exists". The fact that something exists is considered a virtue and a boon to it, even if it exists in pointlessness. This is entirely illogical; there is no inherent value in an idea simply because we currently follow it. If all the world followed the idea that it was a good idea to kill yourself at age 20, would that inherently make it a good idea? The value of ideas is not determined by peoples' approval of them in the past, but by whether or not they are actually quality ideas.

Why unofficial factions are bad:
Unoffi. Faction mostly consists of poorly English speakers thus newcomer, that is not good at English himself can't improve east enough. Um... what? I... have no idea why this would be remotely relevant. Yes, there are unofficials full of poor english speakers. Do you really expect them to be able to recruit well on the forums? Most of them don't even read the forums. Even if they did, the ban on non-english languages on the forums would prevent them from recruiting well anyways. But even if that wasn't the case, the fact that someone has difficulty with english does not make the faction low-quality. As an example, our second admin after Igiss - Korrd - originally had a good bit of difficulty with english grammer.

Unoffi. Factions often has lower roleplay standards. Often? No. Sometimes? Yes, but sometimes it's the other way around, as mentioned above. Nevertheless, if they don't measure up... then they won't compete with the opposition faction. To successfully compete, one must actually have something its opposition does not. This is a clear disadvantage in competition, so I fail to see how it would cause problems for official factions even if it was true.

Unoffi. Factions are harder to give feedback on. You're getting repetitive. Already answered.

Unoffi. Factions mostly are temporary ones, that exist till the leader is happy about it. ... And this is a bad thing? This means that they aren't allowed to maintain themselves as long as they wish, because they wish to have a temporarily timeline for existing? Might I point out that several official factions have been planned so as to exist for a period, then die? The most well-known example is Helghast, but there were several others - factions that are extremely well-known and feared nowadays - that, at least originally, had a set timeline for which they would exist, and a set way that they would die. They told stories, including a rise and a fall. Since when was a roleplay story a negative on a roleplaying server? Since when was contributing to roleplay short-term rather than not at all a negative?

Additionally, a lot of times, they die, not because they want to, but because they simply couldn't maintain themselves without recruitment. They couldn't keep up in the race with the rest of the factions because of the shackles around their feet. I can think of two excellent examples of high-roleplay trading factions that died for this very reason. Trading factions, as you know, are very difficult to maintain. This is even more true with roleplay-based ones, as powertrading-based ones at least have the advantage that people will play them to support their other characters. iKytec died because Avalanche recruited largely laid-back people; he couldn't recruit openly, so he didn't manage to get anyone who was willing to take over leadership. Aves Industries, L.t.d. died for the same reason. We had five very active members - and that was it. We weren't allowed to recruit publicly. So, when our members began to drop away for various real-life related issues, the entire faction imploded, despite its concept, despite its high activity, despite the fact that it was the only shipping company that existed purely for roleplaying shipping and for no other reason.

They are numerous and multiple of NPC factions thus crowding it. Any given NPC faction will support a set number of players due to peoples' interest in that NPC faction. Would you rather these people be all stuck as indies, or would you rather them organize into factions? Would you rather people with roleplay ideas be stuck unable to play them, or be able to play them, thus having fun and contributing to server roleplay?

They rarely have good background behind them and so the immersion is lower. [color#f7f711]You're not only being repetitive, you're generalizing as well. See above on the roleplay of official vs. unofficial factions... twice.[/color]

...

I think unofficial factions should be able to recruit but only by the main thread's subtitle "PM to join" thus giving them at least small chance to become bigger, to attract some players. Because the fact that they're newer means that they should have artificial competitive disadvantages at all?

PS.: That's my opinion, it's not facts. See below.

This post annoys me greatly. Why? Because if you're not posting certifiable fact, but just "your opinion" - which, I presume, is, as it commonly is, code language for Subjectivism (i.e., "it is the absolute truth that there is no such thing as absolute truth") - why are you even posting in this discussion? This is a discussion about truth - and why would anyone ever have a discussion about anything but? Any discussion is about finding the truth; there is nothing more, and all examples of anything less that I can think of are nothing but rotten Sophism.

' Wrote:I support the existing rules, since pretty much all official factions provide a higher-quality experience than their unofficial counterparts. Don't get me wrong, there are a few great unofficial factions out there, but they're few and far between. And so we should cripple these "few great" factions for no apparent reason?

Official factions deserve their perks since any time something happens which affects overall faction diplomacy, it's up to the leaders of the official faction to take care of it. Official faction leaders have a lot of responsibility on their shoulders to keep things in order. But... it's not a perk. That's the point. There is no reward here. There's no power you're giving them. You're just taking powers away from unofficial factions via brute force.

All in all, ditto to Snak3's post. If you don't believe that's true, please demonstrate to me an instance where an Official Faction has been replaced by an unofficial faction due to incompetency of the Official Faction. Lack of activity doesn't count since that can be a factor outside of the control of players. There are several instances where that could and should have happened, but didn't because of this very artificial barrier that we're discussing. But I can name one example where it... mostly happened. The KoF and USI. The KoF was official. The USI was not. The KoF was so bad that the USI got official status - but the KoF didn't lose it, even though they didn't deserve it, because they were largely non-roleplayers or low-roleplayers anyways, and existed to powertrade, so remained active.

Edit: The only means of recruitment for unofficial factions I support is by something along the lines of "PM me" written in the faction's info thread - which should be in the clearly designated Unofficial Faction subforum. At most. But this reduces the possibly-superior unofficial factions' ability to compete with the official faction. It makes the competition not based on ability, but based on posterity - not based on value, but based on history. It's a terrible ethic, if you can even call it that.

' Wrote:Why is this policy in place? What purpose does it serve?

Exactly. This - this - is the question we should ask, not only about this rules, but all rules, not only now, but constantly. If there is ever a rule that exists for no reason, that has no purpose for its existence, or that has more negatives than positives - this rule should immediately be stricken from the books. There is no cause for it - and no, historical precedent is not a valid cause, only value.

The only reason for any rule is its value. In other words, it's only useful if it has a valid and sufficiently important use. Unfortunately, too often, the value is subjective; in other words, we do not have any kind of full system of values on Discovery. What is important? We have not decided. The only thing people seem able to agree on is this vague idol of "roleplay", something which turns out to be terribly ambiguous and unclear. Anyone can say that something is "roleplay", and as we have no solid definition of roleplay, it is practically impossible to disprove their claim objectively - or in other words, to truly disprove it at all.

I had thought I would go on further, but have found that further points are not needed, and will not be unless someone raises some kind of logical defense for this outdated and illogical rule. At this point, anything further to add to my argument would be merely repetitive.

There is, however, one possible Sophist attempt at repudiation that I would like to nip in the bud: that is, the idea that the argument is somehow made less valid by the arguer. Too often on Disco, I see arguments rejected, not because their content, but because their source. This is vile. I will not go into further detail as to why this is so vile here - and if you really don't understand, you can PM me about it - but for those who would ignore the above warning, I would like to add one more statement, not to the argument, but against this fallacy.

I am not in any unofficial faction. I am in three factions: the Hellfire Legion, the Rheinland Military, and the Blood Dragons. Two of these three (the Hellfire Legion and the Rheinland Military) are among the oldest factions in Discovery today - both are certainly within the top 7 oldest, and, if my memory of the exact formation dates of some of those factions serves me correctly, within the top 5. I joined the Hellfire Legion within an hour of the first time I logged onto Disco, and within three months of its creation. It is the only faction on Discovery whose continued existence I care about - and it is one of two reasons I actually still play this game at all. Therefore, do not even think about saying that my argument is based on some young faction that I specifically have an interest in. It is based on personal interest, yes - but only the personal interest of my personal enjoyment of Disco, and thus in the interest of improving Discovery's factions so that I, personally, can better enjoy my interactions with them.

I really haven't read much of this thread. Kinda busy. Just wanted to say one thing. The little 'faction' or group I lead, the Renegades, THRIVES without any recruitment thread.

Granted our numbers would most likely increase if we did have one, but all it take is a little bit of work (sending PMs, making some notable RP posts) to get people to come work with ya.

Good luck to all you Official and Unofficial factions.

Enjoy the game. That is the number one factor;)

Cheers

I read the replies with interest. Obvioulsy players feel strongly about this rule. Enough to make ten posts about it in one case.

I think some players are mistaking an inherited policy (policies change to suit facts, such is life) with some malicious intent. The policy predates my time as admin. It affected me when I ran a pretty successful unofficial faction.

Now it is being reviewed, but clearly it has become enmeshed with some larger underlying grievance between official and unofficial factions and the players who have chose to opt for one group rather than the other.

Why are only official factions currently allowed to recruit (in theory at least)? I imagine it has to do with the fact that they have opted to claim greater status. There aren't many things that official factions can do that unofficial ones can, and it could easily be said that being official often kills off factions. However, in certain circumstances official factions carry more weight than unofficial ones, however these powers are clearly defined and carry responsibilities. One of which is a requirement that you be active. The criteria for this was changed recently, and has caused several factions to be removed from the official roster.

Which factions are merely filling up space that is available? It would be nice to know in what situation a faction would feel capable enough to request that the official faction step aside and make way for more.

What toys have people got that others don't? If you mean that approved proposals entail access to unusual stuff, I think that it must be said that access to these "toys" is pretty easy to get. Becoming official requires a handful of members, a laughably low level of activity and a few weeks on the server not irritating folk. (The kind of folk who let others know when they are irritated). However, the one ID rule obviously must be part of the issue here as well. But if an unofficial faction is fulfilling the role of an official faction, then what does it becoming official serve? In our experience, an ability between players to negotiate and share power has led to all manner of poor form. Hence the one ID rule - to prevent many factions from harming gameplay.

I posed the question about what being official means to people in order to find what others think. I have a pretty good idea that it has something to do with visibilty, power, commitment, an intent to contribute to development, a belief in one's superiority - a whole host of stuff.

Let inactive official factions die?
No need to shout. They can and do die.

Is there any one in particular you think should be "encouraged" to die sooner rather than later?

Most faction feedback posted by players up to now has been so subjective that it becomes impossible to establish if a faction is misbehaving or not. Chastise a faction for overpowering opponents? Not on my watch - the game we play is a spaceship game set in a violent future. The new posting guidelines in the faction review section of the rules forum set out clearly what manner of behaviour is open to public scrutiny. I suggest anyone with any concrete grievance against a particular faction post there, rather than make vague assertions.

' Wrote:Hi there...
I am the CEO of STO

an un-official faction that will be looking for official status soon....

however.. from experience I can tell you that un-official factions do not need a hiring forum..
What we do need is a place to post our faction concepts to refine and get feed back from those that have made faction. This would allow us to toss out our initial concept -- redraft it with the help of those that have done this many times.. and maybe not be turned down when we get players and apply.

To that end -- I am asking if this forum is a place for such?

-Cpt Gorva - CEO of the STO - Poseidon

You can post a faction description and ask for information etc before applying. It's interesting to see an unofficial faction state that it doesn't need a hiring forum though...

I suppose having a new sub-forum of one's own is considered quite a boon for factions, which would make allowing any other faction to recruit possibly feasible as a measure to compensate. Within reason, I mean, you couldn't just have factions spamming recruitment threads.

Footnote: At present, many people have been creative in maintaining message dumps for themselves (something one would associate with official groups), so I think there may be more flexibility here than many of you think.

' Wrote:What toys have people got that others don't? If you mean that approved proposals entail access to unusual stuff, I think that it must be said that access to these "toys" is pretty easy to get

' Wrote:Give official factions more in-game perks like flagships for example or improved trade ships for official trading factions, in-forum perks dont boost activity for the official factions because the large amount of new players who could join official factions are in game not in the forum and if they can use the same toys as the official factions I dont see why they will need official faction tag

Indeed exactly what I mean,why to cut the unofficial factions since it doesn't help the officials in any way?