Discovery Gaming Community

Excellent, we're also hoping to place a yacht somewhere with Vespucci (around Iridescencia/Witchicta/Gaudalajara) as part of RP with the Hellfire further down the line, I thought a copy of passengers_li could be sold there to mirrior Curacao with inbound routes from Baden Baden (passengers_rh) and the Mackinac (passengers_ku). Like I say this is all just theory for now but I thought it best to give you a heads up.

If you'd like to discuss anything please feel free to give me a yell on skype or by PM.

(05-10-2016, 01:51 AM)Xoria Wrote: [ -> ]No, we're not splitting this contraband into multiple commodities. Instead just think of it as consumer goods meets armaments.

APM Advanced Hardware is contraband? Core|APM thought that it's a normal commodity, since it's legal in more than one house. Lyth felt the original infocard and description for the Hardware was very vague and sparse. Hence why Lyth requested it to be split up a bit more to encourage roleplay and gameplay variation. Having a commodity that is meant to represent both consumer goods AND armaments is an extremely broad description for a commodity to have. Splitting it into several commodities would allow for better specification and roleplay — and not just for the haulers either, as the legality of those commodities differ between factions and groups. And speaking of legality, the reason why Lyth requested Viper Munitions is to roleplay insiders within APM making a foray into the criminal underworld market and to add to the roleplay that Core has little moral compass. And also because it'd be very silly for Core to sell it's own APM brand munitions to unlawful groups; they'd get roasted if House lawful groups found out.

Gameplay wise the gist of the request is to create some more trade routes within the Omicrons. The region seriously needs more of those, as it is utterly devoid of any sort of ambient activity. The bonus is the amount of roleplay these commodities can create, and the niches they can fill. None of them are the same both roleplay wise and gameplay, so we're not splitting the commodity into duplicates. Core|APM put good effort into suggesting these commodities and there's really no harm in implementing them. Can't you reconsider please?

(05-10-2016, 01:51 AM)Xoria Wrote: [ -> ]Also, there will be no change to the sourcing of Iridium. That commodity was specifically created to be sourced from Freeport 11. Any infocards conflicting with that are inaccurate. Whether or not it is mined by players is irrelevant.

The commodity wasn't created to be sourced from Freeport 11. It used to be mineable like any other ore and did not have a buy point at the Freeport. Then at one point things changed, and it was downgraded into a standard commodity. The current infocards are not conflicting at all, as they have stood strong for years and even recently new infocards have been released that support the Iridium on FP11 coming from Yaren which sources it from Planet Nauru. The big issue is right now Core has no access to one of its faction produced commodities that is an integral part of Core and is centric to their roleplay. Core economy heavily relies on Iridium; it would make no sense for it to be sold not on the place it was mined from, which in turn makes me wonder: Where do you propose Iridium comes from if it is sold on the Freeport and Core doesn't work with CoF anymore? The request to move it is reflective of a roleplay consequence due to recent events. Iridium is mined on Nauru.

Why can't it be moved anyway? You didn't give a reason. If it's for gameplay reasons, well Corporate IDs, House IDs and Quasi-Lawful IDs can still easily dock on Yaren Base to purchase the commodity. Unlawful IDs could simply purchase the commodity through an ID that can already dock on that base via roleplay. If there is absolutely no chance of the source being moved — even though logically and via roleplay it should — then at least create a duplicate sell point on Yaren. It's really unfair that Core has no access to it.

(05-10-2016, 03:30 AM)Kaghuros Wrote: [ -> ]Well, surely there's some reason why this is the case right? I understand that from your perspective it's primarily a gameplay mechanics issue, dealing with routes being available to a selection of factions with access to varying bases across Sirius, but I assumed there was a canonical background to the idea when you said that the infocards stating that Iridium coming from elsewhere are incorrect.

If that's the case, will we be seeing a change to infocards in the update to reflect the actual location of mining efforts?

I couldn't speak to what it happening with infocards.

(05-10-2016, 02:12 PM)Foxglove Wrote: [ -> ]

(05-10-2016, 01:51 AM)Xoria Wrote: [ -> ]No, we're not splitting this contraband into multiple commodities. Instead just think of it as consumer goods meets armaments.

APM Advanced Hardware is contraband? Core|APM thought that it's a normal commodity, since it's legal in more than one house. Lyth felt the original infocard and description for the Hardware was very vague and sparse. Hence why Lyth requested it to be split up a bit more to encourage roleplay and gameplay variation. Having a commodity that is meant to represent both consumer goods AND armaments is an extremely broad description for a commodity to have. Splitting it into several commodities would allow for better specification and roleplay — and not just for the haulers either, as the legality of those commodities differ between factions and groups. And speaking of legality, the reason why Lyth requested Viper Munitions is to roleplay insiders within APM making a foray into the criminal underworld market and to add to the roleplay that Core has little moral compass. And also because it'd be very silly for Core to sell it's own APM brand munitions to unlawful groups; they'd get roasted if House lawful groups found out.

Gameplay wise the gist of the request is to create some more trade routes within the Omicrons. The region seriously needs more of those, as it is utterly devoid of any sort of ambient activity. The bonus is the amount of roleplay these commodities can create, and the niches they can fill. None of them are the same both roleplay wise and gameplay, so we're not splitting the commodity into duplicates. Core|APM put good effort into suggesting these commodities and there's really no harm in implementing them. Can't you reconsider please?

In a word: no.

(05-10-2016, 02:12 PM)Foxglove Wrote: [ -> ]The commodity wasn't created to be sourced from Freeport 11. It used to be mineable like any other ore and did not have a buy point at the Freeport. Then at one point things changed, and it was downgraded into a standard commodity. The current infocards are not conflicting at all, as they have stood strong for years and even recently new infocards have been released that support the Iridium on FP11 coming from Yaren which sources it from Planet Nauru. The big issue is right now Core has no access to one of its faction produced commodities that is an integral part of Core and is centric to their roleplay. Core economy heavily relies on Iridium; it would make no sense for it to be sold not on the place it was mined from, which in turn makes me wonder: Where do you propose Iridium comes from if it is sold on the Freeport and Core doesn't work with CoF anymore? The request to move it is reflective of a roleplay consequence due to recent events. Iridium is mined on Nauru.

Why can't it be moved anyway? You didn't give a reason. If it's for gameplay reasons, well Corporate IDs, House IDs and Quasi-Lawful IDs can still easily dock on Yaren Base to purchase the commodity. Unlawful IDs could simply purchase the commodity through an ID that can already dock on that base via roleplay. If there is absolutely no chance of the source being moved — even though logically and via roleplay it should — then at least create a duplicate sell point on Yaren. It's really unfair that Core has no access to it.

Wow. You couldn't be more wrong if you tried. The commodity was specifically created to be sourced from Freeport 11, because I'm the one who created it and put it there. That it was mined was tossed on LATER haphazardly and without any due diligence. All of those infocards are after the fact, have nothing to do with either the creation or implementation of the commodity, and have no binding authority over what happens to the commodity. The infocards you are pointing to as authoritative are merely retcons by someone who didn't know what they were doing, like much else that has made it into this mod. The commodity was created for Freeport 11, not for The Core, which did not even EXIST at the time. So, like I said.

(04-18-2016, 08:01 PM)Croft Wrote: [ -> ]I would like to propose a series of changes to the passenger commodities to allow for a greater variety of routes whilst maintaining the established A->B->C->A standard.

I've reviewed your proposal, and unfortunately it fails "to allow for a greater variety of routes," and in fact does the exact opposite. A simple comparison reveals this. These numbers exclude Freeport and Gallic connections in order to compare apples with apples.
The proposed system includes 6 destinations from Baden Baden, but the current system includes 16.
The proposed system includes 5 destinations from Curacao, but the current system includes 14.
The proposed system includes 4 destinations from Mackinac, but the current system includes 9.
The proposed system includes 3 destinations from Hawaii, but the current system includes 7.
The proposed system includes 4 destinations from Denver, but the current system for VIPS includes 10.

The totals are 20 destinations for the proposed system and 56 destinations for the current system.

Not only are the direct transactions in the proposed system reduced by 65%, but there would also be a magnified reduction in possible loops between all bases that probably reduce possible routes by several dozen. In addition, your duplication of commodities at 2 bases guarantees a nerf to profitability, and that's a matter of unavoidable mathematical fact, not intent.

The program I used to plan passenger routes guarantees maximum route possibilities without A-B-A designs. There could be some tinkering around the margins to reduce a base's incoming routes and increasing it's outgoing routes, but no overall improvement in total routes is possible.

The only method available for increasing route complexity and number is by adding additional people commodities. I will give that a look in the near future, and I will take under advisement moving VIPs from Golden Dragon to another location.

(05-10-2016, 05:37 PM)Xoria Wrote: [ -> ]In a word: no.

But why? What reason is there that this suggestion is not feasible? We went through each of your points in the OP and ensured the commodities met the criteria where possible:

(05-10-2016, 05:37 PM)Xoria Wrote: [ -> ]* Should provide a new and unique economic role

None of those suggested commodities are the same. The entire purpose of them is to help add to, or rather create because there isn't one currently, an interesting and varied Edge Worlds economy. After suggestions like Lyth's, the intention would be that hopefully other factions would follow that pursuit and request commodities to help build this Edge Worlds economy.

(05-10-2016, 05:37 PM)Xoria Wrote: [ -> ]* Does not duplicate existing routes or existing commodities

With the exception of AUGs and SAMs, none of these commodities are duplications of routes. Now in regards to AUGs and SAMs, whilst both commodities may have very similar routes in regards to their role as a commodity they're still quite different from each other. I don't need to explain why, simply read the infocards. And both are also treated differently by different factions in regards to contraband/legality etc. And once again on the subject of legality, APM Advanced Hardware isn't contraband (as it’s legal in the Houses when hauled by a Core ID) and furthermore shouldn't be sold to unlawful bases. This is why Viper Munitions was suggested instead.

(05-10-2016, 05:37 PM)Xoria Wrote: [ -> ]* Does not conflict with existing route balance (this will be very difficult for the casual observer to evaluate)

This isn't something we can know ourselves for sure, but we're doubtful that these commodities would have any impact on balance.

(05-10-2016, 05:37 PM)Xoria Wrote: [ -> ]* Enhances role play opportunities for factions (creation of Synth Paste and Synth Gel are good examples of this)

These commodities do this and beyond. Each commodity is distinct and unique gameplay wise, economy wise and roleplay wise. It creates a huge multitude of roleplay opportunities for both Core IDs and the large plethora of IDs the commodity would be able to interact with. More so than Synth Paste and Synth Gel actually. And if the latter was able to be added - when it could also be seen as just as samey as Synth paste - why can't these commodities also be added? Shouldn't people just treat Synth Paste as both 'paste and gel' too without the need for an additional commodity?

(05-10-2016, 05:37 PM)Xoria Wrote: [ -> ]* Trade crosses House borders

Given the amount of sell points this is easily achieved, and creates an economy that can hopefully encourage traders to weave both in and out of the Omicrons.

(05-10-2016, 05:37 PM)Xoria Wrote: [ -> ]Wow. You couldn't be more wrong if you tried. The commodity was specifically created to be sourced from Freeport 11, because I'm the one who created it and put it there. That it was mined was tossed on LATER haphazardly and without any due diligence. All of those infocards are after the fact, have nothing to do with either the creation or implementation of the commodity, and have no binding authority over what happens to the commodity. The infocards you are pointing to as authoritative are merely retcons by someone who didn't know what they were doing, like much else that has made it into this mod. The commodity was created for Freeport 11, not for The Core, which did not even EXIST at the time. So, like I said.

Anything that is submitted and compiled into the mod becomes an item for players to both use and roleplay with. And this is such with Iridium. These infocards aren't old, poorly written bits of rubbish that need to be updated, nor are they retcons. They've either been added recently or have held strong and have been used as a legitimate lore source for years. There is a handful of Iridium infocards that justify The Core's involvement with the commodity, especially the reason why it's on FP11. And Lyth can assure you that he has been working with the story devs closely in regards to how Core has been handling Iridium from a lore standpoint and was responsible for some of the newer infocards regarding Iridium. And there's still a bunch waiting to be implemented too. And FYI, even back when The Core didn't exist, the source of the Iridium on FP11 was the Corsairs who were mining it from Planet Nauru (which later came under the control of The Core). So whilst we may be incorrect regarding the ooRP origins of the commodity, it's inRP origins, roots and current status hold true. Yes, the source was not created for The Core or the Corsairs but for the Freeport, however there has been years long roleplay and lore that has been repeatedly updated and added to to justify why that is the case.

And the commodity will simply become a mineable commodity again in the near future once Iridium mining is re-added back into the mod anyway.

As this is a roleplay server, roleplay should also have an impact on the economy too. It is an extremely tricky situation that currently Core has zero access to the only Iridium sell point their side of Sirius and is utterly laughable because in lore and in roleplay they are directly responsible for that Iridium source. Otherwise, where does it come from? Does it grow on trees?

All we ask is for the sell point to either be moved - which will have zero repercussions on gameplay - or at the very least create a duplicate sell point because without Core having access to it we are creating loopholes both gameplay wise (how are the Invicta Research Complex owners meant to create Cloak Disruptors?) and roleplay wise (Why are The Core, who mine Iridium, still selling it to the FP admist the recent Delta crisis?). Otherwise we're left with this big glaring hole in the lore, and the best way to solve that given the situation you're putting us in would be to retcon the last week of Delta events.

Thanks for reviewing the idea Xoria,

May I ask how many of those connections include none-passenger commodities as according to FLComp Planet Baden Baden has 22 destinations for passengers_rh at the 275 c/sec profit mark.
7 of which connect to Freeports stocking passengers_bw which all lead back to Gran Canaria, a passenger deadend. (Freeports 1, 4, 5, 9, 14, 15 and Corfu leading back to Freeport 9.)
3 more lead to passenger deadends. (Sprague, Manhattan, Newark and Freeport 11)
9 more link to Vacationers which only go to the Shetland or Hawaii. (Crete, Tokyo, Ropporongi, Honshu, Miura, Pittsburgh, Denver, Houston, Hamburg)
The remaining 3 connect to separate passenger commodities 2 of which go to the Shetland and Hawaii relegating your choice to only the Mackinac if you don't wish to end up at the former.

This is what I was attempting to change with my proposal, numerically the routes are highly varied but in practice are really quite limited.

Edit: To ensure I'm using the right calculations my FLComp is set to the following limitations:
Average Speed for Cruise Travel: 350
Average Speed for Trade Lanes: 1900
Jumpgate Delay: 15 secs
Jumphole Delay: 15 secs
Trade Lane Docking Delay: 10 secs
Base Reaching and Docking Delay: 20 secs

Heyo, this is mostly relating to contraband. As I understand it, the reason that Slaves to Okinawa have been reduced in price is because GMG are allowed to legally carry them and this logic has been followed with some other commodities but not all of them. With that in mind I just want to point out other "contrabands" that should probably have their prices adjusted with the same logic applied.

Artifacts and Sorted Artifacts


While these are illegal in every other house, according to the following laws section Artifacts are allowed to be legally hauled in Kusari by Kusari corporations.

Blood Diamonds


After looking through all of the laws I have determined that the only house these are actually illegal in is Rheinland. The Corsairs have outlawed these as well, but I do not believe the Hispanic factions are typically counted.

Hypnotainment Bands


Again, the only house these are outlawed in is the house they are produced in, that being Gallia.

Nox


After looking through the laws, Nox is illegal in every house except for Rheinland as can be seen in their laws.

I'm also unsure of the current status regarding Gaian Wildlife. While the infocard specifically mentions it being illegal in Bretonia, according to their own laws below you can simply obtain a license to haul it legally. However, looking at the c/s of Gaian Wildlife it looks less than other contrabands already.

It is also only a restricted commodity in Bretonia, everywhere else it is completely legal.


If I somehow misunderstood the way contraband is priced or balanced or if it simply ignores laws when determining its pricing I apologize for the wasted effort.

(05-10-2016, 05:37 PM)Xoria Wrote: [ -> ]Wow. You couldn't be more wrong if you tried.

I wouldn't expect this sort of behavior from a dev, especially not one of your standing.

(05-11-2016, 11:51 PM)Jayce Wrote: [ -> ]

(05-10-2016, 05:37 PM)Xoria Wrote: [ -> ]Wow. You couldn't be more wrong if you tried.

I wouldn't expect this sort of behavior from a dev, especially not one of your standing.

(05-11-2016, 11:42 PM)Impyness Wrote: [ -> ]Heyo, this is mostly relating to contraband. As I understand it, the reason that Slaves to Okinawa have been reduced in price is because GMG are allowed to legally carry them and this logic has been followed with some other commodities but not all of them. With that in mind I just want to point out other "contrabands" that should probably have their prices adjusted with the same logic applied.

Slaves are not illegal for GMG at either their pickup or drop off points. All of the rest of the contraband are illegal at one or the other, if not both. If you can find a similar example elsewhere I'd be glad to review it.
I don't even understand why you're bringing up Gaian Wildlife, since it is priced entirely like a normal commodity.
The other thing that has to be taken into account is that a commodity like Blood Diamonds that is sourced from an unlawful base is not accessible with 5k trade faction transports. The higher rates for contraband typically account for the lower (4300) limit on transports that can dock at both lawful and unlawful bases (generally speaking).