Discovery Gaming Community

' Wrote:I will. I'd be happy to help you get sorted out.

Can you find where Epyon's RP for his caps are? And perhaps some other 101st RP for capships is?

I <strike>can</strike> has Skpye. Sorry, no Skype.

' Wrote:Can you find where Epyon's RP for his caps are? And perhaps some other 101st RP for capships is?

I <strike>can</strike> has Skpye. Sorry, no Skype.

PM'd

' Wrote:This has NOTHING to do with the thread and issue this comment was made in and it has nothing to do with my feelings (or lack thereof) towards the person making the statement. It's the statement itself that I am flabbergasted by.

Quote:Ah, but you see ... you have every right to do that, on the server. Thats the point of an open server. We have every right to pound on you for it, because there are more of us, and so long as we follow server rules, we win. We haven't broken any rules, and the admins are siding with us, so you can continue to give a rats ass what the forum community thinks, but understand, we're bigger, and we're more organized. We run factions, we join factions, we stay around, we talk in skype, and we know who you are, and we seem to dislike what you want to stand for. Thats the climate, as I see it. The forum goers and faction leaders have lots of friends, and lots of influence...that, as Xoria explained somewhere else, means we can walk all over the less organized or smaller groups of people who disagree with us on the server.
Does no one see a problem with this attitude--which I have been saying over and over is prevalent and the problem? I don't care what the person "meant", look at what they said. I don't care how wrong the other person may have been or what the issue was--this is flat out an attitude of "we own the server--not you".

This is where 99% of the strife, arguing and sancrtion requests are coming from--this attitude:

QUOTE(Unselie @ Jun 9 2008, 09:41 PM)
Seeing as how the poster implies the admins are "on their side" could an admin please respond to this?

Now, I'm not sure where I posted this, but I must say, this is first of all taken out of context, and that I was upset when I wrote it up. Though I was less than calm and rational, it is still essentialy the belief I hold to, and I believe Xoria also holds to a simmilar belief, though I have not bothered him. He is very busy, and this might wreck his day. I respect him too much to do that to him.

That position, Shigeo, is the bare bones of what everyone can do, could do, and be within the rules, as currently lined out. Its not about anyone's rights, its about a server following the rule of the jungle, and I have had to explain it in other places...I think, somewhere, I explained it in response to your own post, though I may be wrong. Here is one such explanation:

' Wrote:My position is: since it is not against the rules to do so, we may demand whatever we like from indies, and we can take it because we're bigger, and more organized.
This was an orrp statement, and one of possibly 2 or 3 posts, other than this one, that I've made in this debate. Most of that not typing, I did because Akumbito was a member of my faction, and I owed him loyalty because of that.

My position, again, is an academic position, not my belief, I do not hold to the belief that that is how factions should conduct themselves. But I do believe that they are well within their rights to act in such a manner, just as it is within an indie's rights to ignore a faction. Indies are of course much smaller, and things will often go poorly once they have ignored a faction.

I do not believe they should act that way, but I also state that there is nothing but themselves preventing them from doing so. My own faction limits indies in no way, and I created my register merely out of interest to see who was there.

If I could find it, I would show you all the post of Xoria's, from the beginning of this debate a few days ago, that helped me form my own position, but I have lost it. He phrased it much gentler than I, but the fact of the matter is, an organized faction, especially with the support of the community, or even just parts of the community, has much greater power, outside of Roleplay, to give itself power inside of roleplay. It isn't so much a might makes right, as it is often a who was there first...many of these factions who roleplay as the entirety of the group are very old, and have been doing it for a very long time. One person, or even ten, claiming that they are not the group they have always claimed to be walks on a huge ammount of RP, and the fact is, in the current climate, we accept them as the whole of the faction they claim to be. Dont like it? move to Bretonia, where the faction only claims to be a rapid response and strike force under the Queen's purview.

' Wrote:Now, I can't speak for any other factions, but I can tell you that the XA has absolutely no problem with independants whatsoever. We don't consider ourselves to be the entire Xeno movement, so there's a lot of room for independants. We often fly alongside them and have a lot of fun in the process, and we treat them as equals.

As for needing to be in good with the leaders, that is definately not true. I didn't know anybody at all when I filled out my XA application. I flew a couple indie characters before that, but nothing major, and I didn't get on anyones radar, since I was still new to the server. When I was flying indie, I didn't feel stepped on by any factions, either.

Now, what the XA does do is try to lead by example. We always try to stay in character, and we always keep our loadouts in RP. Basically, if you want to know how to properly RP a Xeno, take a look at an XA player. Personally, I think this has worked, as I've noticed an improvement in the quality of indie Xenos since we came on the scene.

Now you see, most of the factions here try to lead by example. From personal experience, I was set by the [GoR] (now the [101st]) when I arrived on this server, and I agree with the statement that leading by example is the way to go.

However, the situation in Omicron Gamma is so bad now that we are left with very little choice. I am sure Eppy and the Outcasts felt the same way about 5 or so destroyers taking their backsides to New York.

If people accuse factions of not trying to lead by example, then that is categorically untrue. Factions of all persuasions lead by example. I try to lead by example too, and encourage those in my faction to spread it.

Coming on to Laowai, your rant is completely understandable, but that decree is actually aimed at the majority. There are less Corsair indies that RP well than all the digits on two hands, whereas there are more bad RPing ones than you can shake a melon at. All we required was a signate saying, essentially "yes, I agree to the terms and conditions". You could even have asked for a reprieve, seeing as you are certainly one of the better ones. I could've altered the register into two seperate lists, the ones with the people who have proven time and again that they deserve their ships, and those who have yet to do as such.

I was actually hoping that you wouldnt see that as yet another attack on the indies, and rather an attack on the indies that have little to no RP. Its a feeble one at that, considering those of your ilk make it so hard for acts such as this to be passed. Considering that the measures we have taken in no way compares to the draconian measures taken by Rheinland that you quote, I fail to see where that point leads. I am willing to talk to any people who have problems with what we do in a civil manner.

The measure was put in place to keep tabs on Corsair capital ships and to restrict their movements. I am well aware that there are exceptions who deserve more privelidges, such as yourself and the scarce few others. The measure was also put in place for, essentially, an ooRP reason. That is to try to curb the use of capital ships. Its evident that raising the price tag simply didn't work, so adding extra red tape is the next step.

Consider that we, the factions, are quickly running out of options to curb the use of large capital ships.

Whether the concentration of power to factions is fair or not is debatable. Since you seem to disregard the fact that the factions are the ones who get the complaints when the indies do something, you should also agree that the factions wish to stop the indies doing the things which cause these complaints. Indies do not have the same rights as the factions simply because they shoulder very little of the responsibility. If you wish to change this, or in fact, if any indie wishes to change this, you cannot simply wish it that way and complain about it. You've got to do something about it. Take some of the responsibility for the actions of your comrades rather than saying "nope, not my problem". If you dont want to do this, then it becomes your problem in the form of measures taken by the factions to stop the actions of the independants.

In a perfect world, I would deal each case independantly and decide with the help of the other members of the respective factions how to restrict a vessel, depending on RP and other factors, such as the reputation of the player. However, this world is far from perfect.

I respect your stance in protecting the independants, but you must realise that you and your RPing capital ships are by far the minority. We make measures for the majority, something that I thought I need not stipulate. However, since you seem quite adamant that your minority is much larger than it actually is, there wont be much room to convince you.

Tell you what, since you are in the corsair senate skype chat, we can discuss this in real time at some point during the day?

After that mini hijack, I still have to say that what Unselie said is completely true. It may be wrong in principle as fairness is not attainable, but since when was anything fair? You have the Labour government in Britain bribing the Democratic Unionist Party to push through a 42 day restraining order on terrorist suspects. You have Robert Mugabe trying any means to stay in power with that aweful moustache he has. You have the so-called "war on terror" in Iraq and probably soon, Iran. You have earthquakes in China and subsequent aftershocks with lakes forming because of rockslides, threatening to flood whats left of some decimated settlements.

Simply put, life isnt fair because we do not live in a fair world physically. If the world was fair, these problems would be shared equally between every individual and so the load reduced. Unfortunately, this isnt the case, because some people like the taste of power.

I am one of them.

Shigeo, its easy to complain about it and your complaints are justified. I do indeed see a problem. However, what I don't see is a solution. Since this is an unfair world, conditions for any action will always be unfair. Freelancer is unfair in that ships, weapons and equipment have different statistics. How can we make things fair in an unfair, albeit cyber, world?

By equalling everything. Titan = Sabre = Blood Dragon = Werewolf. Things like that. But everyone agrees that it should not be the case. So we will live, play and work in an unfair world with unfair conditions. I dont like it as I am on the butt-end of it sometimes, but there is no solution to the human problem.

Even the notion of communism, equality for all, failed in its implementation because the leaders took what power they could, when they could. People aren't good natured for equality. Of course, there are exceptions, but in the same ratio as the good Corsair indies to bad. Or rather, the same ratio to dead pixels to properly working pixels on a sample of a few thousand LCD screens.

As much as I agree with you, which I do, we live in an unfair world and we have to deal with it or not exist.

Quote:...that, as Xoria explained somewhere else, means we can walk all over the less organized or smaller groups of people who disagree with us on the server

While I see the above well out of context, this is not the way we deal with people here. And do not use people's names and the word 'we' for backup unless you are sure about what they have exactly stated regarding such a matter. We do not walk over people. We discuss with people. Select your words more wisely next time.

' Wrote:One person, or even ten, claiming that they are not the group they have always claimed to be walks on a huge ammount of RP, and the fact is, in the current climate, we accept them as the whole of the faction they claim to be.

That's not really true. Within any country there are always groups at odds with each other even when they share a common goal. It serves rp to allow outcasts to be more complex than a single group in lockstep, having a subgroup that is outcast but doesn't follow the same leader as the majority of outcasts does not in any way "walk over" eppys rp.

When you look at entire planets the difference is far more profound and differences accumulate over time.

This has nothing to do with preserving RP, or RP. It has everythuing to do with, as you said "We have every right to pound on you for it, because there are more of us"

Even if true that's an attitude I won't sign up for.

' Wrote:By equalling everything. Titan = Sabre = Blood Dragon = Werewolf. Things like that. But everyone agrees that it should not be the case.

I think that should be the case and I've seen it work. Even if theyy aren't exactly the same, they can be brought a lot more in line so that you don't know who will win a fight before it happens by knowing the ships involved on each side, at least not ships in the same class.

One of the reasons the outcast dessie is used so much is because it's thought to be the best one for pvp.

Quote:I kind of got to rambling there, but I hope I got the idea across. I'm not too happy with Unselie's statement there, but I don't blame her for it. Akumabito is very good at pulling the worst out of people so he can nail them for it. Its a useful skill, if not a nice one. He might make a good minister of propaganda for some dictatorship somewhere. If you're reading this, Akumabito, consider it. Seriously, you're perfect for the job.

He could give Comical Ali a run for his money XD

In any case, I agree with quite a few people here, including Sovereign and Unselie. As a faction leader myself, i'm all for the restriction of capital ships to some extent, but it doesn't have to be "the end" for all independent capital ship users. Just decent RP and common sense is required, which isn't too much to ask as a whole.

Although for the love of everything, I really would like to see my ID proposals specifically regarding Bounty Hunters implemented, because it is just getting ridiculous. I've never even seen a bounty hunter bomber in all my time here, and only seen a bounty hunter fighter 5-6 times. Even the bounty hunter gunboats i've only seen about 10-20 times in all. Almost every bounty hunter i've encountered on this server (which have been hundreds by now) is A) independent, B) very crap at RPing and C) flying a BH battlecruiser. Simply put...enough is enough :/

Kress, I chose my words very carefully.
we can.
We can do many things, Kress. I think you'll find, if you look, that we could operate exactly as I described, and that nothing is keeping us from it but ourselves. It is of course not how we do it here, Kress, but if someone proposes ignoring us and our guidelines, and walking over us, when push comes to shove, the factions are bigger than a rogue indie or a forum troll. I will try to find Xoria's post for reference.

I apologise for the double post, but I believe this deserves its own post.
Here are the words of Xoria's that I reference in the post that has so inflamed the community.

' Wrote:Freedom and power is a two way street.

Any player or group of players has the freedom and power to earn the credits to purchase and roleplay a capital ship.

BUT

Any other player or group of players also has the freedom and power to object to the use of that capital ship and use whatever methods they wish to both object verbally to its use, and object to its use on the server through the violent actions of their characters.

If one person has the right to say all by themselves "I bought it so I get to use it" then a group of players has the equal right to say "No you don't". That is the price we all pay for being in a community.

If you want to follow your own rules and not have to compromise with anyone else, that is what the single-player option is for. If you want to use multiplayer, then you have to accept that you can't always do what you want to do if the community objects to it. In other words, its called the Law of the Jungle : the strong get their way and the weak compromise or suffer. That is the way it is in every real community on Planet Earth, and that is the way it is in the imaginary realm of Sirius.

As much as some people desire to roleplay as renegade, "independent", vigilante characters, others want to roleplay as an organized, power-structure. Conflict between such interests is inevitable and the deciding factor in every case will always be which side can wield the necessary amount of power against their opponent's weakest point.

These are just the immutable, raw, and brutal facts of life, and no amount of complaining about fairness or rules can change them. Not on Planet Earth, and not in Sirius.

' Wrote:Almost every bounty hunter i've encountered on this server (which have been hundreds by now) is A) independent, B) very crap at RPing and C) flying a BH battlecruiser. Simply put...enough is enough :/

That's the situation this policy has created. Once you get a transport, you need something to translate that time and effort into and BH BC is the only real option for most independents.

Things are being done here with no real thought as to the effects down the line.