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+---- Thread: revision of the ZONERS faction - to avoid yearly discussions (/showthread.php?tid=110566)
revision of the ZONERS faction - to avoid yearly discussions - Jinx - 01-20-2014
introduction:
For several years now - we got the yearly or twice yearly drama about Zoners. - One aspect that seems to bother many people is that they believe the Zoners have been estranged from Vanilla ( more than other Disco factions )
So some time ago we started to think about revising the faction - so here are 3 concepts, well, actually 2 but the 3rd is always an option.
1)
This concept deals with the capital ship-line that Zoners possess. Currently they are balanced like any other factions shipline. They were given stats according to size and restrictions (ZoI ooRP and inRP)
The concern is that by having identical stats to military and pirate ships, they encourage similar behaviour. - the solution is to softly "guide" players into a different thinking.
Zoners are less aggressive, more passive - yet - and that is very imporant, we do not want to mess with the actual pvp performance (much) in that concept.
How can we make players play more passivly and less aggressive? - by making shipstats that suggest a more defensive role.
so the basic idea is to significantly NERF their firepower while at the same time BUFF their hitpoints. - the result are, as another dev called it "passive fortresses". - ships that discourage to engage others - while also discouraging others to engage them.
the pvp performance would remain similar to now ( it is not possible to balance it perfectly, because too many variables mess it up ) - it would take a zoner cap longer to destroy an enemy, but in turn it would take an enemy longer to destroy a zoner cap.
by turning them into these passive fortresses - they might also encourage a more passive playstyle.
example:
think of the fearless with twice hitpoints, bats and bots, but half the weapons ( no, thats not how it works, but that picture is good enough as an example )
advantages:
- it requires little work other than balancing numbers
- it might achieve the desired effect with minimal efford and without actually nerfing ( if done correctly )
- it can much easier be reverted
disadvantage:
- the actual desired effect might not occur and zoner ships might still be used for the very same engagements
- the balance might become seriously upset - making ships either OP or UP, and it would be difficult to figure out a compromise - or in other words, it requires long, long testing and a ton of patience.
2)
a more radical concept is a more "total conversion". - again we are not talking about nerfs - not technically, but in that case more about a shift.
Zoners would loose their "military" capital ships - and replace them with civilian capital ships ( aka supertransports and alike )
this idea centers around giving them a complete - and even a bit unique transport/liner line.
how it can be balanced is not worked out yet - but an idea is like that:
- dromedary : used by zoners as a freighter
- conference : used by zoners as an armored transport mk2
- fearless : used by zoners as an armored transport mk3
- aquilon : turns into a battletransport 4200
- nephilim : turns into a superbattletransport 5000
- leviathan : turns into whatever, doesn t affect the general population, but it would be civilian ( transport based ), too
Zoners probably loose capital firepower across their entire line, but gain the most powerful transports ( while being restricted to non house space of course - at least with those beasts ) in return,
advantages:
- fairly unique shipline according to a unique lore
- a lot less players who pick zoner ships for pure pvp reasons
- a whole new "feeling" of the faction
disadvantages:
- requires new models (actually no disadvantage, cause we do have enough models to accomplish that like that: http://p3d.in/qnSaq - more utilitarian style, less sleek and streamlined)
- it retcons some players and factions lore by turning the factions entire shipline upside down
3)
the status quo - this is actually a VALID option, too. - much of the complaints are hypocritical and based on double standards. - however, it is undeniable that the yearly drama strains an already thin community.
however - the current faction balance is not really harmful at all.
advantages:
- no work at all for devs
disadvantages:
- continous drama about spring / summer
now, you are free to comment on it
you are even free to come up with your own idea - AS LONG AS IT IS REASONABLE AND NOT BASED ON DOUBLE STANDARDS. - those 2 concepts were the ones that are most detailed in terms of implementation - and might work. but we are open for other ideas.
what does not belong here is:
- lets unilaterally SRP or in any other ways restrict usage for certain zoner ships. there is no reason to do so if it is not done across the entire board of factions
- lets delete them all - that is also no solution it will only hurt fellow players
so if you write up your own idea it should be based on the following:
- it must be fair for ALL zoner players
- if possible it must not NERF the pvp capabilities of the faction - but if it does - they must gain something of EQUAL value in return.
- it should be something that discourages pvp tendencies and encourages non pvp RP ( yes, there is RP without pvp )
fire away....
edit: i am sorry, i messed up the poll options so they do not correspond to the numbering of the thread.
edit2: i d appreciate a CIVIL thread. - no personal attacks, no "no-you" or similar. there is no need for anyone to get defensive - the aim is not to cripple or nerf the faction - or harm other factions. it is to get into a problem that arose multiple times - with little to no consequences made by the devs. so that time we want to look into it a bit more seriously.
RE: revision of the ZONERS faction - to avoid yearly discussions - Zen_Mechanics - 01-20-2014
I don't think this drama is anymore required, honestly people were complaining that zoners are peace "keepers" and are not aggressive, though some of them are. But that was the culture back then. The easiest solution is to force gallia to attack zoners, to justify a new culture to the zoners, to be more aggressive. Its already like that, but people live in a bubble. The zoners need a major event to justify their diversity. However, If we all agree that zoners are diverse, why anyone would be so surprised that some of them act aggressivly?
RE: revision of the ZONERS faction - to avoid yearly discussions - Mister_X - 01-20-2014
The transports option sounds like the best solution....
RE: revision of the ZONERS faction - to avoid yearly discussions - Zen_Mechanics - 01-20-2014
This is a tiny part from an unpublished ZA lore, that pretty much explains the zoners as a whole ( though its only one page out of.. many ).
Ever since the exodus from Sol and the colonization of Sirius, people and factions have been outcasted, discriminated against, and even expelled from the houses of Sirius. These men and women were strong, hardy people who took it to themselves to flee from the governments of the past. These people were not afraid of the ever expanding universe, not afraid of exploring the unknown, and definitely not afraid of what awaited them, or what came after. These men are and were the Zoners.
The Zoners were never a combined group, just thousands of individuals who fled from the corruption of the House systems. However these men and women slowly came together for protection and co-operation. They combined with like-minded people, people who yearn for freedom and a life with no boundaries. They came together in order to meet their most basic needs as well, as to sustain their new way of life. They came together for protection. These people hated the rule of law imposed on them by the Houses of Sirius and would do anything to keep that oppression from entering their new homes. This was not an easy task.
The Zoners began their new organizations with the realization that they were powerless. They realized that money is power, money is control, money means protection. This led to the creation of the famed Zoner Whale, a machine that would make them rich. The Zoners explored to find new areas, new systems, new wealth. They found opportunities such as the Corsairs with their artifacts and the Iridium in Delta. The Zoners worked together to build networks of freeports in order to trade these new resources with the rest of Sirius, and what did they want in turn? Money. The Zoners used their vast network of trade to create a diplomatic web that they knew would protect them, at least for a little while. They knew that as they became stronger, bigger, wealthier, that people would covet their wealth, covet their unparalleled freedom. The Zoners knew that these same people would mass together, whether because of jealously or for power, and try to take it from them by any means necessary.
The Zoners were then thrust into conflict on that fateful day when Freeport 7 was destroyed by the Nomads, sending all of Sirius into a war for their lives. This was the Zoners awakening. The Zoners began to use their vast sums of wealth accumulated over hundreds of years to build a fleet comparable to the strongest of the houses. Even with the diplomatic web intact, the Zoners knew that a day would come when it would all come crashing down, and they decided to be ready for that day. The Zoners built Livadia shipyard and forged an alliance with the Order. The Order sent their best engineers and technicians, while the Zoners funded there constant war with the nomads. The Zoners did the same with the Corsairs, and eventually ended up with ships such as the Nephilium class Dreadnought and the Aquilon class Carrier. Ships that would inspire awe and fear into any future enemies. The Zoners always had the willing pilots, and now they had the ships, they just needed a leader.
Thats all you need to know.
RE: revision of the ZONERS faction - to avoid yearly discussions - Jinx - 01-20-2014
@tel-aviv:
yes, i see your point, however it is not so much about the individual that acts borderline to their "core" lore ( which is still fully legit ) - it is about suggesting the players what the middle ground is supposed to be. ( and also tell non zoners how to react to them )
the fact is - when others see a big behemoth like the nephilim walz into "their" system, they get anxious - if the same thing was .. for example .. a transport ( even a very strong one ) the reaction may be different. ( or for that matter - a warship they know only has half their own firepower )
how zoners act and do not act is not just a unilateral RP experience but depends also very much on how others see them. - those ideas about a revision of the faction were made to aid both, zoners and non zoners alike.
also - IF zoners had no capital warships - but still wanted to RP more aggressivly and in a warship - they do have allies that they could most probably ask for such ships ( with the nerfs applied ) - or file a SRP for a specOPS ( without the nerfs applied )
that would make the archetype of the "fighting" zoner rarer
we do know though that you can also do a lot of damage with "normal" battletransports
edit:
i reckon it is not the best time to post this atm - cause many ppl are kind of in an uproar about other stuff ( lag and pobs etc. ) but for transparency sake - it had to be posted some time ... or burried again for a year.
RE: revision of the ZONERS faction - to avoid yearly discussions - Spud - 01-20-2014
I think there are a lot of ex guard IDs and IFFs of various faction that cant be removed.
Why not convert those to "Freeport 1 Zoner", "Freeport 9 Zoner", "Baffin Zoner", etc. Also a "Indepenent Zoner" which can live off their own base. Different zoners can even be hostile towards each other, some can be Hippies, some can be delusional nut cases, some can be mini-tyrants.
That way Zoners will lose their "neutral to all" status with all the impossible RP implications and superpower feeling. Even the trade restrictions could be lifted like that.
Would allow for some more creativity and variety to RP too.
RE: revision of the ZONERS faction - to avoid yearly discussions - MÃmir - 01-20-2014
I don't think 1) will work, and I don't think you should exchange firepower for hull, but simply just reduce the firepower if anything. Fearless and Corvo are pretty difficult to kill as it is due to size and agility; and the jugg has a huge amount of hitpoints, the carrier is pretty decent in terms of hull as well and has a better shape/profile/size: Zoner caps already have quite high survivability, above average for any cap faction out there.
I vote for 2, if Zoners need the big guns (which they really shouldn't unless they are severely messing up) they can work on that diplomacy they are so famous for *cough* and work on getting allies to help them out. Roleplay server and so on.
Also:
(01-20-2014, 01:42 PM)Tel-Aviv Wrote: The Zoners began their new organizations with the realization that they were powerless. They realized that money is power, money is control, money means protection. This led to the creation of the famed Zoner Whale, a machine that would make them rich.
Yes ok we are playing a casual space shooter here, so I'm not asking for a masterpiece or anything; but imo we need to raise the bar a bit if this fiction is going to be just a tiny bit coherent. How's this for a story: "My lowlife pirate guy wanted to get rich, so he created a battleship so powerful that he could destroy planets and demand huge ransoms from all the Houses". Sounds good to you? I mean you are forgetting the pivotal aspect in this creation narrative: The how rather than the why.
Disclaimer: I am the proud owner of 2 Zoner cruisers and a Nephilim along with Zoner snubs and transports before anyone starts crying anti-zoner.
RE: revision of the ZONERS faction - to avoid yearly discussions - Zen_Mechanics - 01-20-2014
(01-20-2014, 01:46 PM)Jinx Wrote: @tel-aviv:
yes, i see your point, however it is not so much about the individual that acts borderline to their "core" lore ( which is still fully legit ) - it is about suggesting the players what the middle ground is supposed to be. ( and also tell non zoners how to react to them )
the fact is - when others see a big behemoth like the nephilim walz into "their" system, they get anxious - if the same thing was .. for example .. a transport ( even a very strong one ) the reaction may be different. ( or for that matter - a warship they know only has half their own firepower )
how zoners act and do not act is not just a unilateral RP experience but depends also very much on how others see them. - those ideas about a revision of the faction were made to aid both, zoners and non zoners alike.
also - IF zoners had no capital warships - but still wanted to RP more aggressivly and in a warship - they do have allies that they could most probably ask for such ships ( with the nerfs applied ) - or file a SRP for a specOPS ( without the nerfs applied )
that would make the archetype of the "fighting" zoner rarer
we do know though that you can also do a lot of damage with "normal" battletransports
edit:
i reckon it is not the best time to post this atm - cause many ppl are kind of in an uproar about other stuff ( lag and pobs etc. ) but for transparency sake - it had to be posted some time ... or burried again for a year.
Completely understandable, but you also must realize that weak civilizations perish, and it is because of the "sort of unexplained cap-line of the zoners" that zoners are still alive, Because behind diplomacy, or the smile, or the handshakes, the threat of violence is there. And I couldn't think of a better faction that is supposed to have strong ships. The zoners mess with pretty much everyone, and the only thing that I assume keeps that balance, is their capacity to retiliate, and retiliate strong. Once you remove their cap-line, I can assure you that factions such as TBH ( if followed by reason ) will take all the freeports in theta, and the omegas, because why should we pay the zoners if we can simply take it for ourselves? Thats what your idea might bring, but in theory your idea is wonderful. To put it like this, Keep the nephilim, and convert all others as u have suggested, The nephilim must always be strong if the zoners want to make it. And changing prices of food as a retiliation is not going to do a thing, because zoners deal with pirates and gunners, and for that very reason - zoners must always have the weapons and the ships to force pirates to back away.
RE: revision of the ZONERS faction - to avoid yearly discussions - Jinx - 01-20-2014
@
splitting the IDs into micro factions was considered - but it might become a bit too much. - we already have IDs for the official factions that operate under their own little manifest of ideals.
but splitting all zoners up - while being a logical and surely neat thing - might not fix the problem - but just escalate it - which leads to zoners fighting zoners due to very very different ideals.
in other words - i think we already have plenty of factions to satisfy most affiliations. - and there are some freeports that simply do not have enough "lore" to justify their own little faction.
so in theory i agree with you, but in practice i am unsure it is a good solution.
@mimir:
thats about what i think - although i do see potential in option 1
btw. - i don t agree with the cynizism - many players do try their best in terms of diplomacy - and the failure of it is not a measure of their skill, but often based on the very subject. not everything that is attempted to be solved by diplomacy CAN be solved - no matter how hard you try.
RE: revision of the ZONERS faction - to avoid yearly discussions - lIceColon - 01-20-2014
(01-20-2014, 01:31 PM)Jinx Wrote: - dromedary : used by zoners as a freighter
- conference : used by zoners as an armored transport mk2
- fearless : used by zoners as an armored transport mk3
- aquilon : turns into a battletransport 4200
- nephilim : turns into a superbattletransport 5000
- leviathan : turns into whatever, doesn t affect the general population, but it would be civilian ( transport based ), too
Omighad u missed da TRADE CORVO!!!! 8|
And whatever happened to "trading in a Battleship is stupid"? Hypocrite
Anyway, on a serious note: I like the idea of flying a superbattletransport that dwarfs even the renzu-even if it has a transport's paper hull stats- just for the heck of it
Who knows how good 23 transport turrets firing simulataneously will perform in battle? They consume less energy for one, and their fdamage output is not bad, aspecially type 2s vs large ships and type 4s vs small ships.
But then I read Tel's post, and I think I prefer Option 1 more. A battletrans- even a neph, will explode quickly to bombers like tissue to shredder. Buffing zoner defense is a good way to go, perhaps disable zoner prims but allow them to fire more secondaries?