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+---- Thread: Battle Razors.. (/showthread.php?tid=18505)
Battle Razors.. - Dab - 03-28-2009
Alright.. After a single destroyer was able to hit 2 bombers with a battlerazor, I took a look at the stats..
Kusari Destroyer, killed 2 bombers and made the last run, because it couldn't drop the shield. And how?
Hull-Damage: 140,000.00 = 35,000 per second
Projectile-Speed: 800
Thats how.. The thing is faster than a Supernova.
Cruiser Battlerazor: 800m/s
Supernova: 280m/s
The cruiser battlerazor is faster than any fighter weapon.. If you can hit a fighter with a fighter gun, you can hit a bomber with a battlerazor even more easily. Gunboats have 600m/s. Battleships.. Projectile-Speed: 1,600. Battlerazors have turned into the ultimate bomber-killing weapons. Single hit kills, and they are extremely fast.
The Rheinland Battleship's Secondary turret.. Which was made specifically for killing fighters, has a projectile speed of 1,250m/s.
Hull-Damage: 825.00 = 2,500 per second
Projectile-Speed: 1,250
Compared to the Battleship's Battle Razor;
Hull-Damage: 1,400,000.00 = 140,000 per second
Projectile-Speed: 1,600
It'd be easier to hit a bomber with a battlerazor than an anti-fighter weapon..
The ability to insta-kill bombers from a distance of over 500m should NOT be one of the destroyer's/cruiser's/battleship's/gunboat's abilities.. Battlerazors need a serious speed adjustment. And some of you might say; "Oh, well the destroyers/cruisers are much slower, so it'll be a lot harder to aim." Well please remember, they have turret view.. They can aim and swivel faster than we can circle, even if we're fighters. On top of that, the cruiser can fire battlerazors repeatedly.. Bomber can do it once in awhile.. Battlerazors aren't anti-fighter/bomber weapons.. They need the speed to reflect that, not the speed superior to regular and anti-fighter weapons.
EDIT: Note to everyone else, because its become very obvious, and some have even admitted it; Do not post if you aren't willing to read the thread. When in a balance discussion, reading the first post and nothing else is not going to work. If you feel your opinion is warranted or necessary, than reading the rest of the thread is necessary as well.
Battle Razors.. - Weedalot - 03-28-2009
i agree, this should be adjusted.
Battle Razors.. - Tenacity - 03-28-2009
if they're made any slower, we wont be able to hit small gunboats/gunships with them, which is what they ARE meant for.
Sorry, not changing.
EDIT:
Btw, addressing these comments:
Quote: Battlerazors need a serious speed adjustment. And some of you might say; "Oh, well the destroyers/cruisers are much slower, so it'll be a lot harder to aim." Well please remember, they have turret view.. They can aim and swivel faster than we can circle, even if we're fighters
Not true. My cruiser primary turrets take almost 5 seconds to make a 180 degree turn. Pulse Turrets, Razors and mortars are even slower to turn. Any ship that gets inside of 500m range and is circling us - especially circling vertically around the ship, is nearly impossible to hit - even with solaris guns which are MEANT for that purpose.
Any bomber outside of 1000m that knows how to strafe is impossible to hit with anything slower than cruiser primaries (1000m/s speed), and even those are going to be difficult to hit with. 1 second is a lot more time than it seems when you're in the middle of a fight.
Razors also have a 10 second refire rate, meaning they have a longer wait between shots than supernovas do.
Quote:On top of that, the cruiser can fire battlerazors repeatedly.. Bomber can do it once in awhile.. Battlerazors aren't anti-fighter/bomber weapons.. They need the speed to reflect that, not the speed superior to regular and anti-fighter weapons
In a battlecruiser - with a 360k powercore compared to the 200-260k of a normal destroyer/cruiser - battle razors take about 1/8th energy to fire each. They are by no means spammable.
And take a look at the fighter/bomber equivalent, the mini-razor - it's crap against capships, it's designed to hit smaller enemies like a truck head on. Capship battle razors are the same, mortars are our anti-cap weapons, razors are meant to kill smaller more manuverable craft (though admittedly not fighters/bombers, with the exception of the battleship razor) - without them, cruisers and battlecruisers dont stand much of a chance at hitting gunboats/gunships; which are faster, more manuverable, and harder to hit.
IMO the cruiser razors need a speed buff right now, so they're actually useful in hitting things like the BHG gunship.
Battle Razors.. - Dab - 03-28-2009
' Wrote:if they're made any slower, we wont be able to hit small gunboats/gunships with them, which is what they ARE meant for.First; Not your choice. So you don't get to say 'Sorry, not changing.' This is how a community and development team works.. We discuss it and get to a satisfactory conclusion.
Sorry, not changing.
Second, they can still very easily hit smaller ships. If my very slow GC Bomber can hit a Gunship with a 280m/s Supernova, a destroyer/Cruiser can hit one with a 400m/s Battle razor. Lets not forget GBs/GSs have a range of 800m right now.. They get close and a cruiser destroys them. Also, a cruiser doesn't NEED battlerazors to kill them.. Normal stock turrets will utterly demolish a GB/GS right now. Battle Razors are meant to be used on same-class ships. Cruiser battlerazors meant to hit other cruisers for example. And do you think it a fair or balanced trade that a cruiser can easily insta-kill fighters and bombers left-and-right just so it can hit a GB? If this weren't fixed, the cruiser would become the kill-all ship. It'd be worse than the Gunboat and bomber spam of 4.84.
Take the GB spam and add it to the Bomber spam of 4.84.. That'd be what the new cruiser spam will become.
Battle Razors.. - Ironwatsas - 03-28-2009
I hate to say it, but Tenacity is right for once.
You'll just have to take getting raped by BRs in a bomber every now and then, try to stay at standoff range, or get a cap with BRs of your own.
It isn't all that easy to hit a manuvering bomber with a BR (I know quite well this). In this case, you were probably up against a skilled marksman so nerfing the hardware is the wrong way to go.
Battle Razors.. - Cosmos - 03-28-2009
i agree with you but, a cruiser B razor is useless otherwise.... 35k hull damage using 350k energy each time they fire it currently does nothing.
now is it possible too make a Burst weapon? say you click fire and it shoots 3 times in the space of a second?
but it would have a much lower damage output... lets say 4k damage?
Battle Razors.. - Jamez - 03-28-2009
' Wrote:I hate to say it, but Tenacity is right for once.
You'll just have to take getting raped by BRs in a bomber every now and then, try to stay at standoff range, or get a cap with BRs of your own.
Yes, aiming a supernova at a Kusari Destroyer at a 'standoff range' (I'm guessing thats out of range of the Battle Razor) will be easy.. impossible more like.
Also, this:
Quote:or get a cap with BRs of your own.
Is not the sort of mentality we need on this server.
Battle Razors.. - Tenacity - 03-28-2009
Quote:Is not the sort of mentality we need on this server.
Yes, it is - experience both sides of the argument before asking for changes. I fly both fighters, bombers, and my carrier on the server right now, I can comment on the balances of each because I've fought with them all.
I think too many people are still dependent on the supernova against other caps. People... use nova torps, combine one with your supernova - use the snova to drop shields from 1k or more range (understandably on some of the small cruisers/destroyers, like the kusari dessie, this is easier said than done - but there will always be ships like that, just like the BHG gunship has been since 4.84).
After the target has lost shields, start spamming nova torps from a distance, they do more damage than your supernova and will knock off turrets from the cap, plus they can home in on the target and are not in the least easy to shoot down.
Battle Razors.. - Ironwatsas - 03-28-2009
Quote:QUOTEor get a cap with BRs of your own.
Is not the sort of mentality we need on this server.
Do you not see my epic plan, my dear?
If and when Dab's arguement here fails, the capwhore legions armed with 10+ BRs will begin to roam. For a time, it will be a dark era for Bombers, but soon the people will see that BRs need to be nerfed to hell and back, as they can't go 5 minuites without being roflomgpwned
The public outcry will be so shrill and intense, that the BR will be torn asunder and nerfed to crap speed but ~ amounts of damage and low energy consumption, effectively D:ing their usability against small ships.
Now do you understand my flawless logic?
Battle Razors.. - Tenacity - 03-28-2009
' Wrote:Do you not see my epic plan, my dear?
If and when Dab's arguement here fails, the capwhore legions armed with 10+ BRs will begin to roam. For a time, it will be a dark era for Bombers, but soon the people will see that BRs need to be nerfed to hell and back, as they can't go 5 minuites without being roflomgpwned
The public outcry will be so shrill and intense, that the BR will be torn asunder and nerfed to crap speed but ~ amounts of damage and low energy consumption, effectively D:ing their usability against small ships.
Now do you understand my flawless logic?
any cruiser using that many BR's is going to get completely raped by a cruiser with even a single mortar.
Razors arent nearly as efficient against large ships as mortars are, and they cant hit small ships as easily as primary guns and solaris turrets can. There isnt an issue here.