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+--- Thread: Increasing snubcraft cruise speed to 355 (/showthread.php?tid=114555)
RE: Increasing snubcraft cruise speed to 355 - Acqiran - 04-17-2014
Correct me if I'm wrong but the way I see it most new players happen to fly traders. These guys could care less about building up a rp story for themselves as they are only trying to get enough credits for a better ship. This separates players into two groups: Ones that are seeking fun/rp and ones that are grinding credits. Now if you want a player, who is just trying to grind, to roleplay with you, you should probably stress that you're not looking to kill anybody. You just want him to toss you a bone and both of you go on your separate ways.
Now here's how the average disco pirate handles a fly in the web:
Pirate: Oiy, cough up 2 million of em or you're roasted metal!
Trader: *silently flees*
Pirate: Running away eh? [WEAPONS ONLINE]
Conclusion: The trader loses his cargo and is sent back to his last dock while the pirate sits in a cloud of debris whining about traders not cooperating. I don't think cruise speed is the problem here. It's the tone of the pirates and the lack of a smooth transition into a demand.
RE: Increasing snubcraft cruise speed to 355 - Thyrzul - 04-17-2014
(04-17-2014, 10:14 PM)Acqiran Wrote: Now if you want a player, who is just trying to grind, to roleplay with you, you should probably stress that you're not looking to kill anybody. You just want him to toss you a bone and both of you go on your separate ways.
Dude, that's the point of piracy, what do you think what are pirates trying to achieve? If it would be for the kill, it would be called murder. Obviously you don't aim to butcher the cow if you can milk it. But if you can't... Remember, all interactions have two sides.
RE: Increasing snubcraft cruise speed to 355 - Zelot - 04-17-2014
(04-17-2014, 09:11 PM)Pancakes Wrote:(04-17-2014, 08:16 PM)Hawk Wrote:(04-17-2014, 06:39 PM)Pancakes Wrote: How about a trader and escort working together?
We can keep this dance for days if you want, Hawk.
No need for that really. Both are true. Traders should work together just as much as pirates should work together, and there should be a disadvantage for both if they choose to go it alone. No need to take that disadvantage away just for the pirates.
(04-17-2014, 07:17 PM)Zelot Wrote: If you can't down a transport in a bomber in 20k on thruster you don't deserve to get the transport. Mind you I have been the pirate in this same situation once or twice, losing the transport after a long chase. My response, giving congrats to the transport pilot for being good.
He gets it. This should only happen a few times before you start changing the way you do things. No one is meant to win every time. Something should still be left to the skill and ingenuity of the player.
SNAC takes 29740 E, a heavy bomber has a core of 47000 E 2350 E/S.
That means that per minute, heavy bomber can fire ~5 SNACs (the calculation brings a little bit lower, but assuming we start with full core, it will get just a tiny bit below 5).
5 SNACs are 660k damage. Now, lets assuming our good transport buddy is in a Mastadon with just UAU 8 - that means he gets 2.5 time less damage, which is basically 264k damage per minute.
Now, Mastadon has 170k base hull and 550 nanobots that heal 600 hull points each, that's a total 500k hull points you need to down
that's 1.894 minutes of firing SNACs on the transport's hull. During that time, the transport gets to move 15.4k (assuming speed of 140 m/s thrust).
So, now, lets assume we have to overcome shields separately too, alright?
light transport shield has 35 K shield
and every second it regenerates 1100 extra so that's 124.7 K shield regenerated
we have 165k shields regenerated from the shield batteries.
so that's a total 324.7k.
Now, our nice bomber will need calculate the time it takes to regen the core from 1 shot which is 0.08 sec, so scaling up to the core it's 517k damage (that's in a perfect state, mind it all by the way) so that's 0.628 minutes wasted on shields.
So, we have a total of 2.463 minutes in conditions that are perfect for the bomber
in that time the transport thrusts a distance of 20.69k.
Basically, every pirate that want to be able to down a transport in a distance of ~20k, our little merry pirate must develop PERFECT aiming skills, PERFECT chasing skills, have PERFECT timing (meaning, no SNAC that hits shields just as they come up which does happen and quite a lot).
Oh, you also MUST be using a heavy bomber.
For example, lets assume I hit about 80% of my SNACs, that would make it a journey of 26k, in otherwise perfect conditions for the pirate, with a heavy bomber.
So, master Zelot, master Hawk, teach me your ways.
All the calculations were done with Bloodl1ke. Toddles.
While you keep suggesting this is under perfect conditions for the bomber, you are also talking about perfect conditions for the transport.
Aside from that, yea, you have to be pretty good to get a transport at 20-25k from dock. I think what Hawk is alluding to is the idea that if you see it's hard to pirate someone when within 25 K of a dock, then maybe you shouldn't try to pirate people within 25k of a dock. If the average distance to dock is 20K (and who knows where the hell that number came from) then that means that there are as many places that are farther than that, as there are places that are closer than that. Use a different spot.
What do you think about using a different spot there master snakethree?
RE: Increasing snubcraft cruise speed to 355 - SnakThree - 04-17-2014
Any spot is fine by me.
RE: Increasing snubcraft cruise speed to 355 - Thyrzul - 04-17-2014
(04-17-2014, 10:50 PM)Zelot Wrote: While you keep suggesting this is under perfect conditions for the bomber, you are also talking about perfect conditions for the transport.
Doesn't the two mutually exclude eachother? I mean, if the perfect conditions for the bomber would allow it to maximize it's damage dealt on the trader, wouldn't the perfect conditions for the trader allow it to minimize it's damage taken from the bomber?
(04-17-2014, 10:50 PM)Zelot Wrote: if you see it's hard to pirate someone when within 25 K of a dock, then maybe you shouldn't try to pirate people within 25k of a dock. If the average distance to dock is 20K (and who knows where the hell that number came from) then that means that there are as many places that are farther than that, as there are places that are closer than that. Use a different spot.
I used to argue with this too and to check counter-arguments' validity I myself tried to look for piratable spots too. And in the House I was looking around I found only a handful of piratable spots.
If there are very few closer places, that means there are very few farther places as well. Average in itself barely means much, deviation matters more.
(04-17-2014, 10:50 PM)Zelot Wrote: there are as many places that are farther than that, as there are places that are closer than that.
If there are very few closer places, that means there are very few farther places as well. Average in itself barely means much, deviation matters more.
RE: Increasing snubcraft cruise speed to 355 - Pancakes - 04-17-2014
(04-17-2014, 10:50 PM)Zelot Wrote:(04-17-2014, 09:11 PM)Pancakes Wrote:(04-17-2014, 08:16 PM)Hawk Wrote:(04-17-2014, 06:39 PM)Pancakes Wrote: How about a trader and escort working together?
We can keep this dance for days if you want, Hawk.
No need for that really. Both are true. Traders should work together just as much as pirates should work together, and there should be a disadvantage for both if they choose to go it alone. No need to take that disadvantage away just for the pirates.
(04-17-2014, 07:17 PM)Zelot Wrote: If you can't down a transport in a bomber in 20k on thruster you don't deserve to get the transport. Mind you I have been the pirate in this same situation once or twice, losing the transport after a long chase. My response, giving congrats to the transport pilot for being good.
He gets it. This should only happen a few times before you start changing the way you do things. No one is meant to win every time. Something should still be left to the skill and ingenuity of the player.
SNAC takes 29740 E, a heavy bomber has a core of 47000 E 2350 E/S.
That means that per minute, heavy bomber can fire ~5 SNACs (the calculation brings a little bit lower, but assuming we start with full core, it will get just a tiny bit below 5).
5 SNACs are 660k damage. Now, lets assuming our good transport buddy is in a Mastadon with just UAU 8 - that means he gets 2.5 time less damage, which is basically 264k damage per minute.
Now, Mastadon has 170k base hull and 550 nanobots that heal 600 hull points each, that's a total 500k hull points you need to down
that's 1.894 minutes of firing SNACs on the transport's hull. During that time, the transport gets to move 15.4k (assuming speed of 140 m/s thrust).
So, now, lets assume we have to overcome shields separately too, alright?
light transport shield has 35 K shield
and every second it regenerates 1100 extra so that's 124.7 K shield regenerated
we have 165k shields regenerated from the shield batteries.
so that's a total 324.7k.
Now, our nice bomber will need calculate the time it takes to regen the core from 1 shot which is 0.08 sec, so scaling up to the core it's 517k damage (that's in a perfect state, mind it all by the way) so that's 0.628 minutes wasted on shields.
So, we have a total of 2.463 minutes in conditions that are perfect for the bomber
in that time the transport thrusts a distance of 20.69k.
Basically, every pirate that want to be able to down a transport in a distance of ~20k, our little merry pirate must develop PERFECT aiming skills, PERFECT chasing skills, have PERFECT timing (meaning, no SNAC that hits shields just as they come up which does happen and quite a lot).
Oh, you also MUST be using a heavy bomber.
For example, lets assume I hit about 80% of my SNACs, that would make it a journey of 26k, in otherwise perfect conditions for the pirate, with a heavy bomber.
So, master Zelot, master Hawk, teach me your ways.
All the calculations were done with Bloodl1ke. Toddles.
While you keep suggesting this is under perfect conditions for the bomber, you are also talking about perfect conditions for the transport.
Aside from that, yea, you have to be pretty good to get a transport at 20-25k from dock. I think what Hawk is alluding to is the idea that if you see it's hard to pirate someone when within 25 K of a dock, then maybe you shouldn't try to pirate people within 25k of a dock. If the average distance to dock is 20K (and who knows where the hell that number came from) then that means that there are as many places that are farther than that, as there are places that are closer than that. Use a different spot.
What do you think about using a different spot there master snakethree?
the only perfect condition for the transport is that it's flying in a straight line. And assuming that all it need to go do is get from point A to B, there's little reason as to why it won't achieve so.
I don't think you also understood it, this is more than merely perfect conditions as to hitting the transport itself, it's also perfect in the sense of "oh look, I don't miss out ever, I have perfect timing (as in, you fire the moment you are able to)" and the fact that the transport in the example is using light shield. Which, under the perfect conditions for the bomber is the best (since the transport won't up it to chew on SNACs, of course), if we would take into account a heavy transport shield that would be 42.375k more shield points that would need to be downed overall.
The real effective range of this encounter is around the 25-27k, assuming we don't have utterly perfect conditions, and the trader can be arsed to zoom out a bit and shield up when the bomber fires his SNAC. It really doesn't take that much of an effort.
Now, we just get to the fact that the same trader with just HAU 4 (which takes like what, 3-4 trade runs to acquire?) that effective range would be 31k. Which basically makes piracy viable only at very certain hotspots like California->NY Jumpgate.
There is a reason why piracy is so dead.
RE: Increasing snubcraft cruise speed to 355 - Acqiran - 04-18-2014
(04-17-2014, 11:53 PM)Pancakes Wrote: There is a reason why piracy is so dead.
Not enough traders -> pirates get bored
I don't think being a pirate is all that hard. I just have a hard time catching flies.
RE: Increasing snubcraft cruise speed to 355 - Syrus - 04-18-2014
While unquestionable nowadays and quite useful and all, I think the increase in cruise speed from the vanilla game has taken away from the feeling of vastness of space and the exploration fun.
Then again, that can't be changed nowadays anymore.
Anyway, on the issue of increasing snub cruise ... don't see the point, if the trader gets away, he gets away. Sucks to be you, since you must be bad at pirating...or wasn't that how it goes?
Then again, it was pointed out how 5 m/s is nothing, and I agree. But ... the use for this would only be there when a non-snub runs to the system wall. So hm...I guess if it is only going to be 5 m/s, it wouldn't make a big difference most of the time, so I think it could be acceptable.
But in the end I don't play often enough anymore to really care or feel like voting on it...btw, pirates would have an easy going if they had a LF/freighter (with CD) + a bomber/GB/transport for pirating. But obviously, pirates don't need to consider teamplay that much...that was often pointed out to me. Only transports "should have escorts", a pirate "should be able to do his job on his own". So...how about leaving it like it is and using LFs/freighters as runner-stunners? O;
RE: Increasing snubcraft cruise speed to 355 - pipsqueak - 04-18-2014
In my humble opinion, leave the speeds as they are. use cooperation (A group mate with a light fighter or a freighter ship ) or diligence to control the trader (Their cruise charge is still slower than yours and if you see it charging up you can disrupt, rinse repeat and continue).
If you really want to go the han solo route... look into the ragnar types (heavy armor, lots of guns.. faster cruise than transports). But asking for the ultimate pirate ship that can take on transports solo easily, catch up to them and run efficiently if challenged , kind of defeats the advantage of teaming up... which is the essence of discovery.
As for transport flying 30 above or below plane.... remember, they can not leave system from that latitude and have to come down to take a gate or a hole. Catch em there....(unlike the old days you can not jump back and forth between systems to save your skin)
RE: Increasing snubcraft cruise speed to 355 - Zayne Carrick - 04-18-2014
Quote: if the trader gets away, he gets away. Sucks to be you, since you must be bad at pirating...or wasn't that how it goes?And this's after full thread of calculations, showing that trader who's not flying without regens/armor will escape 8 times from 10, depending on distance to nearest base.
And trader, who's flying with cau8 will certainly escape from any single enemy.