Quote:Jeff Nelson, Freeport 1 Bartender:
There are BMM representatives here who purchase goods for their base. I don't mind them spending their money with us, but honestly I don't like having them here. Many of us left Bretonia to escape the BMM. They are awful to work for.

(Kind of suggests Zoners trading with BMM stations wouldn't happen, wouldn't it?)

Logan Clark, Freeport 1
Zoners hazard the Border Worlds because we don't want any governments telling us how to live. That's why I hope the Corsairs and Hessians force the corporations out of this area. Then wed have the system to ourselves.

(Self-explanatory I would think.)

Craig Owens, Freeport 6 Bartender:
Zoners basically want to get along with everybody. We try to produce Commodities at our bases that others will need; that way we can go where the governments aren't. We survive by trading with other independently minded factions.

(I think that ends the discussion.)

Jim Millam, Freeport 2 Bartender:
Zoners firmly believe in the concept of Freeports -- places where anyone, regardless of their criminal or political affiliation, is welcome. Unfortunately, the authorities in the House systems do not subscribe to this philosophy, so there are none within House boundaries.

(Just an added cherry.)

Zoner Infocard:
Zoners are a diverse group of individuals who, for various reasons, have decided to live in the wild and unregulated systems outside colonial control. Over time the Zoners have evolved into an influential and rich faction that invests a lot into deep space exploration, much like The Order. When The Order allied with Corsairs, Zoner relations with the Outcasts became no less tense than with the Corsairs. However, the Zoners of Omicron Theta felt they were powerful enough to defend themselves from both factions and, to this day, skilfully use the antagonism between Outcasts and Corsairs for their own benefit.

(I think that more than settles it, yes? If you want to continue this Nooblet, bring your own evidence.)

' Wrote:Up to this point I've withheld my vote. Alright, here's a revision for you.

I want the train armor to be equalized with the large and advanced trains. They're the same thing with extra pods, right? And my trader HAS to be a train, or it DESTROYS the RP I have for it. Don't touch the b/bs I don't even fly with them half the time.

That is how this particular proposal effects me, personally. You're not deserving of my irritation, but it exists nonetheless... I got my FL tags the hard way. I got my zoner guard tag the hard way. (It was my pleasure to have a transport with not a single kill to its name, but when I had to transition to guard in preparation for the next version I was forced to kill things, including GMG fighters... I felt griefed.)

People only really tend to speak up about these things when they're set to lose something precious to them. Well here I am. Is this different from the "A Discovery without Capships" thread just because there's less of me? The general consensus there was that it isn't right to punish good players just for the actions of a few (haha yeah few) bad apples. Yet I feel that's happened to me a few times now. (Four if we are keeping score.)

Yes, I'm aware of the selfishness inherent in this post. Considering the way I've played since I've been here (RPing with every pirate, halting without having to be disrupted, chipping credits to every tom, dick, and harry who just started/lost everything) I think I can afford one, selfish, post.

And Mal, though I believe this is late;
If this proposal goes all the way through, I will be faced with a choice. Either I can fatally retard my RP, or take a major nerf in defense as well as trading potential (and for the record I have never used external programs like FLC or Datastorm- I've explored everything but Gallia personally and the trades I run "feel good" and that's how they are determined.) Unless I'm very tired, I always gladly sacrifice efficiency for RP. The last two out of three piratings ended with me delivering requested cargoes instead of a tax.

' Wrote:Dab,
Any chance of changing the wording to 'May not land on any lawful station/planet/base in house space apart from those belonging to.. (insert current exemptions here)'?

This is essentially the same although it does not prohibit landing on unlawful or junker bases within house space. I cant think of one good reason to prohibit that via such rule-based methods. We may very well need to land there, and it would enable those slightly shadier zoner guards to still enjoy their roleplay.

I can understand concern over possible Zoner slavers, but to my mind, anything like that should be dealt with via in-RP methods by police & miltary factions/indies, in line with respective RP house law.

Remember, Zoners are a very diverse society who's only real commonality is that they do not wish to live under the heel of house law (while mostly respecting them with a view to retaining cordial relations).

If concern over use of the ZBT (due to its relative cheapness) for nefarious purposes is such a concern, simply jack up the price along with introducing these relatively lenient docking restrictions.

' Wrote:After I thought some hours about this topic, I think I want to revoke my former opinion. Please do not implement this. The Zoner/Zoner Guards may use their transports as they wish and where they wish. There is no need to restrict the roleplay with more and more rules.

I am suggesting some relaxation of rules instead: I see this whole discussion very biased, because I mainly play in Rheinland as lawful and unlawful, so I think I can judge the situation there. Give the official factions more rights to stop and blast those guys who are abusing or using their ID wrong!

It is clear that the Zoners are a group of people who decided to live in the remote systems and border worlds for various reasons. I believe there is some codex within the rows of the Zoner 'leadership', like Doug for example, that the Zoner ID needn't be used for smuggling purposes but is free to use for legal/scientifical trading. The Smuggler ID serves the 'unlawful' trading rather well.
So what I suggest: if a Zoner-ID-ed vessel is found smuggling or breaking other house laws... meh... solve this situation via RP, like I tried it with the message to the Council of Zoners. Let the story evolve, give Zoners house restrictions for some time, do whatever you like as long as it stays in RP. I know some of the Rheinland faction leaders and I have great respect for them, because they know what they are doing and they know how to handle tricky situations. Just let them solve the problems on their way without any rule restrictions.

Example: An announcement of the Hessian leadership to primarily attack Zoners and steal their cargo will prevent them from abusing the Omega way into Rheinland... just be creative.

Now that should cover my opinion for now.

' Wrote:Background? Alright, fair enough... The character is a Zoner by trade but a humanitarian by choice. A man with a savior complex that has spent considerable personal cost in such things as reconstruction efforts on Cambridge, aiding refugees of the Bretonia/Kusari war, and of course supplying various freeports, notably 11 and 1 as of late.

You have a provision for refugees, but sometimes I have got to land somewhere house-controlled to take care of business. So the choice I am left with leaves me somewhat embittered, especially after a slew of various other sweeping changes that have effected my person.

Quote:The reason we didn't put 'lawful' and allow unlawful docking was because more than half the Zoners trading in house systems, and the majority of the powertraders and non-RPing ZGuard transports are ones hauling Artifacts through Alaska, Cardamine to Planet Manhattan, or other similar things.. If we allow unlawful bases, these same Zoners will continue doing the same routes, the same way, with the same lack of RP. Only they will drop off the goods at the nearest Junker station inside of the houses. If I were to allow docking on unlawful stations, which I'd like to do really, I'd say that a 'Cannot smuggle contraband inside of house space' clause would be needed.

' Wrote:Maybe a 'No Smuggling' clause would be all that's needed to weed out the Zoners who choose to smuggle through the Houses, no? Since, as you say, the problem Zoners are mostly the smuggler types. I like your original idea, too, but this one seems even simpler and more clear.

' Wrote:Not a bad suggestion, but a bit simplistic, I'm afraid.

Zoner ID already says "cannot participate in unlawful actions"..

The loophole is.. "smuggling" is not considered "unlawful" per se in Baffin, for example, whereas it is in mostbunall Houses.

Smuggling cardi will get you killed by Corsairs. Smuggling artifacts might very well get you killed by Outcasts.

But as "freedom-loving" Zoners, it would be anathema to most of them to have even the CoZ issue an edict against it. Look what we just (secretly) went through regarding whether to make slavers release their cargo on freeports.

I've lost a bit of my "zeal" for the proposal myself; and would happily consider ideas that fit the concept of "Celine's Laws" better. Encouraging good behavior is always preferable to "mandating" it, IMHO.

Therefore, for several reasons, I don't think a "No Smuggling" policy coming from within the Zoner Community is a practical solution, sir. But thanks.

' Wrote:Mal, that is the reason I put; 'Cannot smuggle contraband inside of house space.' Baffin is not house space, and thus, you can trade anything there. But I'm not sure if this solution works when we might have to trade Synthetic Marijuana through the houses, or other commodities.