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+---- Thread: Greyhound...again (/showthread.php?tid=29002)
Greyhound...again - MarvinCZ - 11-03-2009
I'll repeat something you so conveniently avoided:
' Wrote:I have one simple question for those of you who cry about "nerfs":I saw a rebalance, maybe even a small buff to the Greyhound (it "feels" better). Both in game and in stats.
Did anyone of you even fly the Greyhound after the changes? And how much? A circle around the base?
Greyhound...again - Saronsen - 11-04-2009
Quote:x4 Sammaels drained like a bitch on a Templar power plant
Drained the crap out of my bomber cores in 4.84.
Okay, on the Greyhound.
Never flew it, don't really care to. But here's an idea.
Give it a completely new model that's smaller, sleeker, and boasts like what, 8800 armour? But make it turn slightly slower than some HFs, maybe a little slower than the eagle. Give it(keep) a light VHF power core, maybe a heavy HF core, or make a new core for it in general. Give it 1 class 10 gun, 2class 9, and one class 8, and a class 5 turret. And keep the class 9 shield.
Come on, think of some new ideas instead of QQing about how it is now. Just remake it.
Greyhound...again - mjolnir - 11-04-2009
' Wrote:Give it a completely new model that's smaller, sleeker, and boasts like what, 8800 armour? But make it turn slightly slower than some HFs, maybe a little slower than the eagle. Give it(keep) a light VHF power core, maybe a heavy HF core, or make a new core for it in general. Give it 1 class 10 gun, 2class 9, and one class 8, and a class 5 turret. And keep the class 9 shield.
:unsure:
Apart from having 4 class 9s + class 5 turret (=5 class 9), it's exactly like that now.
Greyhound...again - tansytansey - 11-06-2009
' Wrote:You completely miss the point of Greyhound. It's the only ship in the pirate line which is not made for piracy.
I'm sorry, you're telling a Liberty Rogue they don't know what their own ship can and can't do? The Greyhound has always been capable of killing transports by it's self until now. x4 Sammaels was enough in 4.84, and after update 1 I found that x4 codenames was enough. But now the Greyhound is practically incapable of killing a transport by it's self.
' Wrote::)If you don't like any of the rogue line... get an Eagle... or something civilian.Why should I have to? I should be able to have confidence in my own shipline to perform against my enemies.
' Wrote::lol:Vengeance and debbie combo seems more popular, unless that's changed drastically over the past month. Templar may be slow, but the Greyhound is bigger. In templars you're also fighting Greyhounds with 600m/s guns. I've fought in a Templar and it's not -that- slow, and the Greyhound is bigger than it.
Sorry, I had to do that.
Slow big Templars with 700m/s guns. You're flying against Guardians or even Avengers with 600m/s magmas, sometimes Vengeances, but those are not getting used often from what I've seen. Guardians are fast, yes, but most of the time you see them with 600m/s guns and even 2.0 refire ones, which are easier to dodge. Avengers are nearly as slow as Templars.
And yes, MRing a Liberator is hard. It is supposed to be hard, it's a LF. :) MRing a Hussar is hard too.
' Wrote:Higher up you are talking about it loosing firepower now... well 4 Sammaels vs 4 Sammaels + lvl5 turret (Belial), you pick what's more.I pick x2 Kintano and x2 Thors Hammer as being more than x4 Sammael and x1 Belial. The former is what my Greyhound used to mount, it was at least capable of killing transport shields.
Quote:I'd say it was overpowered in 4.84, slightly overpowered in 4.85 if used as a mini platform only.If it was so overpowered, why wasn't every man and his dog spamming them? No Rogue (except for Zig, but he never plays his Rogue so he doesn't count) equipped a Mini-razor to their Greyhound in 4.85. So there goes your "mini-platform only" theory.
Quote:The highlighted part is more interesting, no greyhound is not good for pirating.Not good =/= incapable. Greyhound has never been as good but it has always certainly been at least capable as long as it's pilot has some acuity. Using x4 sammaels and x2 debs on a Sabre is pushing it, let alone x4 sammaels and x1 deb.
Quote:Bacon is pretty much right about not getting something for nothing. Issue with greyhound in 4.85 was that is was too hard to kill, while it was frustrating to fight in. Now it got easier to kill and easier to fight in.So it's not right to get something for nothing, but it's okay to take something for nothing? The Greyhound should have been easier to kill in 4.85 than 4.84, considering the Greyhound got bigger and lost some armour, and gained nothing for it.
You got complaints from the BAF that the Greyhound was too hard to kill, but did you ever get complaints from the LN that it was hard to kill?
The way I see it, it's like what happened with Cruiser weapons around the beginning of 4.85 BETA. Some people wanted Cruiser weapons buffed because they sucked on large slow cruisers, while other people wanted them nerfed because they were too good on small, fast cruisers like the Kusari Dessie.
The Greyhound might have been very effective in Bretonia, and in need of a nerf, but that was not the case in Liberty. I've always felt the Greyhound to be slightly underpowered versus ships like the Guardian.
I think you've been balancing the Greyhound from the perspective of the Mollys, but the Greyhound is supposed to be the Liberty Rogues trademark ship.
If it makes balancing easier, I can always make the Mollys an exclusive ship that fits the balance of Bretonia.
Greyhound...again - MarvinCZ - 11-06-2009
' Wrote:I'll repeat something you so conveniently avoided:
Quote:I have one simple question for those of you who cry about "nerfs":
Did anyone of you even fly the Greyhound after the changes? And how much? A circle around the base?
Greyhound...again - Andrew_Bonesovich - 11-06-2009
' Wrote:I'm sorry, you're telling a Liberty Rogue they don't know what their own ship can and can't do? The Greyhound has always been capable of killing transports by it's self until now. x4 Sammaels was enough in 4.84, and after update 1 I found that x4 codenames was enough. But now the Greyhound is practically incapable of killing a transport by it's self.
I've never said it wasn't able to pirate at all. I've said it's not designed to do that, and other ship from the pirate line are waaaay better at this job. Greyhound is more of a support ship for the rest.
Quote:Vengeance and debbie combo seems more popular, unless that's changed drastically over the past month. Templar may be slow, but the Greyhound is bigger. In templars you're also fighting Greyhounds with 600m/s guns. I've fought in a Templar and it's not -that- slow, and the Greyhound is bigger than it.
I mount magmas myself, and I've seen many people with magmas or codenames (or mixed together). The slow Molly guns are reason why we were using Minis so much. Ordinary guns were brutally ineffective. And yes, Templar doesn't feel that slow when you're shooting it, because of it's shape and size. I wouldn't say Greyhound is bigger. They're roughly the same but have their mass distributed differently. While Grey has huge back, Templar has huge front profile. In chase fights, yes, Templar has advantage. In jousts, Greyhound is tiny and deadly if it has MR.
By the way, I'm speaking from [MR] perspective all the time here. We were winning quite easily with some MR skill and patience most of the time, even against experienced BAF pilots. Something wasn't right, change was needed.
However, I agree that the weapon slot change to 9 class is a bit too much, but actually not for LR, which have quite okay weapons for fighting other fighters (750m/s speed, high damage), while Mollys have Trefoils at 600m/s, high damage and similar efficiency, and now are forced to use them over codenames. Oh well, purple godesses are now 9 class, might be time to try them on my MR >.>
Sammaels are great for fights with their speed, and bad against transports. It perfectly supports the ship in what it's designed for - fighting other fighters.
Quote:If it makes balancing easier, I can always make the Mollys an exclusive ship that fits the balance of Bretonia.
This
It would be solution to all issues with the ship we have right now I think. Doesn't need to be really different, I think just two greyhounds with different lights or something, and of course different stats.
Greyhound...again - tansytansey - 11-07-2009
' Wrote:I've never said it wasn't able to pirate at all. I've said it's not designed to do that, and other ship from the pirate line are waaaay better at this job. Greyhound is more of a support ship for the rest.At least we had the option in the past.
Quote:By the way, I'm speaking from [MR] perspective all the time here. We were winning quite easily with some MR skill and patience most of the time, even against experienced BAF pilots. Something wasn't right, change was needed.That is the problem, I think. The Greyhound seems to have been balanced to the perspective of the Mollies rather than the Rogues. The problem is we fight the Guardian, not the Templar. Ships that are practically opposites. The Guardian is kinda like how the Greyhound used to be, a HF with VHF stats. Similar size to the Greyhound, too, begs the question if the Guardian can have those kinds of stats, why can't the Greyhound? They're a similar size, same amount of forward firing weapons. Only difference is someone decided the Greyhound was going to become a HF.
Quote:ThisIf only it were that easy.
It would be solution to all issues with the ship we have right now I think. Doesn't need to be really different, I think just two greyhounds with different lights or something, and of course different stats.
Greyhound...again - ... kur nubėgo? - 11-09-2009
Just to ask one question. As we know Corsairs and Mollies are fighting whcih each other. Anyone paid attention to Gladi vs Greyhound balance?
Greyhound...again - mjolnir - 11-09-2009
Greyhound
Armor: 8200
Bats/bots: 63/63
Guns: 5x lvl 9 (4 lvl 9, 1 lvl 5 turret)
1 Torp slot
Gladiator
Armor: 9200
Bats/Bots: 55/55
Guns: 2x lvl 10, 2x lvl9
1 Torp slot, 1 CD slot
=======================================
So greyhound has:
- less armor (1k less)
- more bots (8 more: 8x300=2400 more hitpoints on both hull and shield)
- 5 guns compared with 4 guns of Gladiator, Gladiator has 2 lvl 10s, so it can mount some "better" guns, but Colada is much less efficient than Tizona, and there's no lvl 10 Salamanca, Codenames with 4.00 refire are actually worse than lvl 9 salamanca, on the other hand 1 more slot means that Greyhound can mount 1 missile and still have 4 guns.
- no extra CD slot
On top of that:
- Greyhound is faster
- Greyhound is about 1/2-1/3 gladiator width from front, but about 50% longer.
=> Don't see any problems there.
Greyhound...again - Guest - 11-09-2009
We get it already, stop bickering, well just adapt, ugh.