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+--- Thread: ADMIN NOTICE : OFFICIAL FACTION RIGHTS (/showthread.php?tid=21611)
ADMIN NOTICE : OFFICIAL FACTION RIGHTS - worldstrider - 06-10-2009
Deiter...I think you are missing the point of some of us who dissent. You proposed this with a firm idea in your head of how it would work and you are agreeing with yourself on the points you have already decided.
My point--and I think a few others--is that PLAYERS should not be given the powers of ADMINS. Part of the problem we have now are admins who play and lean heavily to one side or the other because of it. The last thing we need now is to institutionalize the power of the groups that pushes for that lean. Server rules should equally apply and enable and restrict all.
The "I trust you point" has one flaw--personal pronouns. You trust this one but not that one..they trust another but not a different one--and on and on. Bottom line is, those who aren't connected, get no trust and thus get no say. They are able to be set aside by admins or players and there is nothing they can do about it. We get a "class" server. Those who were here and are known and jockied for power are in charge and those who come after get the crumbs from their table unless they can shine shoes and whistle on cue.
A lot of us are saying, "Ahem...we don't trust all these people you do". Some of the most childish players on the server head or are key members of factions. I would hate to see them acting as admins.
I may be wrong, but I think this decision isn't just a topical one based on an issue of the moment--I think its going to determine the success or not of Disco in the long term. I really would encourage you not to do this--and it has nothing to do with battleships really.
ADMIN NOTICE : OFFICIAL FACTION RIGHTS - Virus - 06-10-2009
' Wrote:This is our decision, and if it turns out to be a mistake, we're not polititians, and are allowed to do u-turns.
We're not politicians, good. So then I am allowed to do what I am about to do. Suggest a change to the current rules proposal. There is a reason I voted for community input. Unlike Xoria, I would have preferred to remain unanimous as a team, but I suppose such a veil is already destroyed. We are merely human, as make mistakes. As such, I have no reservations about posting my opinion in public then. This is my current opinion:
1) Official Factions are free to restrict or not restrict access to their owned systems and tax players who enter owned system. Access to systems that surround owned system must not be restricted unless there's a war with another faction.
Fine, but it doesn't bring up a few questions: Are they allowed to restrict independents with proper tag/ID? I would personally assume not. As much as it is a pain the ass to have a bunch of indies in "your" system, it is generally the only place that one can purchase ships or equipment without flying across Sirius (Fafnir or Supernova in Rheinland, for example).
2) Official factions have authority over players of the same NPC affiliation, as long as RP justification is provided. This authority applies in forums and in-game, and applies to player faction diplomacy, and strategic and tactical direction. However, exercise of that authority,...
Fine so far. I haven't read much about any problems with this. I don't have any problems other than I still believe the top three ranks should be able to have this power.
3) Once a faction achieves official status, they will receive their down payment of $500 mill back. They will further receive a Cap 8 Armour Upgrade, once they have spent 3 months contributing meaningfully to server RP, for instance, via events and forum activity.
I believe a Cap 8 is too far. Blunt Pencil's idea of many more, smaller, interesting rewards might not be a bad idea. Unfortunately, apart from codenames or unique commodities (such as mission commodities), I can think of little and do not approve of codenames.
Returning the credits I do not mind.
-- > Edit: I have been convinced to change my mind on the matter of the Capital 8s. I was indeed thinking "I have several, why cannot you obtain the same?" A capital 8 for a faction's flagship may be acceptable. It's only credits, afterall. I am still torn on this matter. Opinion subject to change.
4) Official Factions who have planned an event can restrict participation of others in that event as they see fit.
I have always assumed this was an acceptable rule. Whoever organizes an event chooses who can show up. Either way, it puts it in writing which is rarely a bad thing.
5) Official Factions control the issuance of Battleship Licenses to independent players and faction members for their house Battleships, via the forum application process.
Players sanctioned for PVP violations in a battleship may, at the Admin's discretion, have the license removed as part of their sanction. They must then re-apply for the license from the official faction, or downgrade the ship.
An Official Faction which has granted a battleship license to a player may ask the Admins afterwards to remove the license, with reasons. Conversely a player who feels they have been treated unfairly by an Official Faction, regarding a license, may appeal to the Admins.
The important part, right? I am changing my original vote to be against this section of the faction rights proposal. Namely, I do believe this adds a level of bureaucracy that might be confusing to new players (or people who speak English as a second language). It also does, in fact, lend the ability for faction leaders to be more bias. If I wanted to buy myself a Kusari Battleship, I probably would be immediately accepted just for my name while, say... Nooblet would not. People who are abrasive (<_<), people with poor reputations, and unknown people would have a much more difficult time than I would. UNLIKE the faction proposal process.
Instead, I propose that the rule be effectively altered to instead provide a way for factions to report abusive players. For example, removing a battleship license and forcing a player to sell a battleship (or simply changing it to a Starflier/deleting the character) for violations that damage game play. Such things like cruising to catch up, smashing light fighters with battleships/ganking, oorp docking, oorp chat, disrupting a faction's role play (i.e. "I am Admiral, you listen to me!" to a Lt. in a player faction), and other such stuff. I assume you all know what I am talking about here. Yes, I know most of this is covered in current rules, but it all falls under 1.2, for which it is hard to submit a sanction report. So, I give you my proposal:
Quote: Players sanctioned for PVP violations in a battleship may, at the Admin's discretion, have the license removed as part of their sanction.Above is a propose addendum to rule 1.5 or 6.24
Quote:An Official Faction may ask the Admins to remove a player's battleship license, providing proper reasoning is given.Above is proposed alteration to right number five.
Personally (and the other admins may kill me for this), this would including putting a ship in Battleship with a "Contact Admin" note in their hold and a message saying which Admin to contact. Such player would then PM the admin, who would explain the situation and get his side of the story before making a decision like this. Said battleship would be in Bastille until talks with the player can be completed, at which point he would be removed from Bastille or sanctioned. Hopefully more often than not, the latter.
Assuming that this would not happen every bloody day, I would be willing to take this responsibility on.
--
As a note I'd like to place at the bottom of my post, relating to the beginning of my post:
This is--in fact--a proposal. I voted to get community input. That is what I would like to see. Simply saying, "You are wrong." is not the way to go about convincing us to change. Suggesting alternative methods (as I have done above) is one way. I would like each post to be positive from this point forward.
@ Tinkerbell:
Trust is a major issue, yes. However, suggesting alternatives would be better than simply stating the problems with the current proposal. Remember, this is only a proposal. None of us are married to the idea and I, personally, expect to change my mind multiple times.
ADMIN NOTICE : OFFICIAL FACTION RIGHTS - Thexare - 06-10-2009
' Wrote:No-one does, but it is the truth. When you see an independent do you look at them and wonder what RP they have, or wonder how long it will take them to get sanctioned?Between the two? RP. Before either, I wonder whether or not they speak English.
But we should both step back and let more reasonable people debate this. You're not listening to me for whatever reason (from what I can tell, because you don't like me), and I'm not listening to you because I'm irritated with your insults and inaccurate implications.
You are both being unreasonable and off topic. I suggest you both take a hike until you cool off or--even better--simply stay on topic and provide suggestions rather than bickering.
-Virus
ADMIN NOTICE : OFFICIAL FACTION RIGHTS - pipboy - 06-10-2009
' Wrote:The "I trust you point" has one flaw--personal pronouns. You trust this one but not that one..they trust another but not a different one--and on and on. Bottom line is, those who aren't connected, get no trust and thus get no say. They are able to be set aside by admins or players and there is nothing they can do about it. We get a "class" server. Those who were here and are known and jockied for power are in charge and those who come after get the crumbs from their table unless they can shine shoes and whistle on cue.
I'm sorry, but I fail to see why this trust issue is a problem.
Trust is privilege, not a right. It's earned, and those that have earned it deserve the respect that comes with it. For those that are here and are known you call it "jockied for power", I call it "earned the right to receive respect and trust". Whether or not you agree with them on everything is another issue, they've still earned respect and the trust that they will maintain good RP.
New members of Disco must earn the same. When they do, good for them - that means Disco is growing and prospering.
ADMIN NOTICE : OFFICIAL FACTION RIGHTS - worldstrider - 06-10-2009
' Wrote:@ Tinkerbell:Your post is reassuring. The tenor of my response was based on the runaway train speed this thread seemed to receive in public approval as if it was a mere formality. I am glad Xoria made his post and you made yours. The decision process by admins on most things is not clear to us non-admins. We can't always tell who is thinking what, if its just a consideration or an actual pending decision. So the tendency is to cover the bases by addressing the worst case scenario until things are clarified. What you have proposed for the most part is pretty acceptable--if all the ideas you submit here were all in place. I particularly feel the "fair hearing" side should be an absolute. Both sides get to speak before things are stripped away. I still think the few less mature faction heads will attempt to abuse the process when they are riled and have one suggestion to add to the above:
Trust is a major issue, yes. However, suggesting alternatives would be better than simply stating the problems with the current proposal. Remember, this is only a proposal. None of us are married to the idea and I, personally, expect to change my mind multiple times.
Quote:If a faction leader abuses or misrepresents his/her power in regards to another player, he/she is subject to the same penalties as would have applied to the person he/she was charging--up to being removed from his or her faction.If the equitable solution to abuse of power is to be relieved of it then it must be possible to relieve a faction leader of their membership in their faction as that is where they derive their power from. In the end, I am less concerned it be done "my way" and am only concerned that it remains fun to play here. I'm not the admin...it isn't my call. I firmly believe the server has to have authority and it should rest with admins--they get the final say. What's always a concern is players who have more entree' to admins and seem to unduly get noticed by them on a regular basis (or at least that's how it sometimes appears). I just want to see everyone as good as, no one less than.
In regards to the below:
Quote:As a faction leader , I am completely FOR this changeOf course you are--you run a faction.
Quote:have faith in the people who are in charge of the factionsDespite the fact that several factions are fine, several are not. I do not have faith in them. It's a question of maturity and self-control. They haven't earned that faith from me.
Quote:These changes...are going to add meaning to factions , not to mention that the people who are a part of them would feel like they are truly a part of the disco affairs and business. Not only bystanders in everything which happens around them.Wow...I ran and founded a faction and I never felt I was not a factor in what's going on--nor do I feel like less of a factor not being in one. It sounds more like, "If we had more authority and could control things we would make it better for you and us". How about do it without "more authority"--then it will really be appreciated.
Quote:For now , nothing has happened , there are no people who feel stepped on by the factions.That's completely untrue. I have been--on more than one occasion--and nothing has happened regarding this because it hasn't been done yet. That doesn't validate that if its done nothing then will happen.
ADMIN NOTICE : OFFICIAL FACTION RIGHTS - Eternal - 06-10-2009
Tisk Tisk
I began reading this topic and at first I was very excited. This is something that I wanted to see for a long while now. But then , my smile began to fade away when I started reading posts from some of the older members of the community who wish to ruin this exceptional and brave step for no other reason then "What MIGHT happen".
As a faction leader , I am completely FOR these changes. For the people who think that all faction leaders decided to make a skype chat and look for new ways to increase our power , you are wrong. These changes are needed and are going to add meaning to factions , not to mention that the people who are a part of them would feel like they are truly a part of the disco affairs and buisness. Not only bystanders in everything which happens around them.
Virus : The RM may have 3x4.00 armor upgrades on their Battleships from 2 years ago , but many factions don't. And with money being very hard to come around these days , I see no reason to say that an armor like that is "too much".
Why is it too much ? People often wait months to receive official status. Hours of text writing and then editing. Do they not deserve something as a reward ? The way I see it , everyone who doesn't wish to see armors being handed out to official factions is simply selfish and has the " I traded / bought for a good price / got it from a friend so long ago , why should you have it too ?! " attitude. I'm sorry , but this is what I think at the moment.
My advice to everyone who is afraid of change is simple. Don't go on thinking that if you don't critizise these new improvements , you are a lesser member of the community. Just wait and see. For now , nothing has happened , there are no people who feel stepped on by the factions. Have faith in them , more importantly , have faith in the people who are in charge of the factions. After all , don't forget who these people are , most of them are your friends and are very old and experienced members of the community.
Why stamp over this threat when nothing bad has happened ? Factions haven't screwed up yet , but you think and assume they will.
Seth: I don't like many people in the BHGC as characters , however if Athenian suddenly decided to make an Osiris I would gladly look at his application and if it is good , I will accept him with NO SECOND THOUGHTS. There is a difference between characters and people.
ADMIN NOTICE : OFFICIAL FACTION RIGHTS - pipboy - 06-10-2009
' Wrote:Seth: I don't like many people in the BHGC as characters , however if Athenian suddenly decided to make an Osiris I would gladly look at his application and if it is good , I will accept him with NO SECOND THOUGHTS. There is a difference between characters and people.And there's my point again. Eternal trusts Athenian, he may not like him - but he trusts him. Athenian has earned the respect and trust that being an experienced member brings with it. Eternal know that Athenian will RP the ship properly.
Why oh why is there something wrong with this?
ADMIN NOTICE : OFFICIAL FACTION RIGHTS - Virus - 06-10-2009
' Wrote:Virus : The RM may have 3x4.00 armor upgrades on their Battleships from 2 years ago , but many factions don't. And with money being very hard to come around these days , I see no reason to say that an armor like that is "too much".
Why is it too much ? People often wait months to receive official status. Hours of text writing and then editing. Do they not deserve something as a reward ? The way I see it , everyone who doesn't wish to see armors being handed out to official factions is simply selfish and has the " I traded / bought for a good price / got it from a friend so long ago , why should you have it too ?! " attitude. I'm sorry , but this is what I think at the moment.
Hmm... I believe you may be right then. I will edit my post to reflect as such.
ADMIN NOTICE : OFFICIAL FACTION RIGHTS - pieguy259 - 06-10-2009
I agree with all of these changes. Well done! This provides me and other unofficial faction leaders with a whole host of new incentives to become official.
Also, free cap 8 - yum. The Majestic could use one of those.
ADMIN NOTICE : OFFICIAL FACTION RIGHTS - Seth Karlo - 06-10-2009
But isn't this just killing indys? The whole point of an Indy is that it isn't controlled by a faction. It now seems factions control everyone...
I also fully agree with the posts made by Tinkerbell, Xoria and Virus.
Seth