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+----- Thread: Liberty Navy [LN] Feedback Thread (/showthread.php?tid=11128)
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RE: Liberty Navy [LN] - Laura C. - 07-24-2015
(07-24-2015, 11:27 AM)Mímir Wrote:It was for Thyrzul´s point about high ranking military personel being immersion-breaking when acting irresponsibly like it´s not happening inRL. It is. And in this case, relieving from command is completely logical.(07-24-2015, 11:22 AM)Laura C. Wrote:(07-24-2015, 11:08 AM)Thyrzul Wrote:End yet from time to time inRL we see high ranking military personel acting really irresponsibly in public - see for example here (first what came to my mind). Thus it should not be immersion-breaking to see them acting in this manner in inRP world based on real one.
@Rest: One would expect that people getting into military positions requiring high levels of responsibility got into their position because they met all the requirements, including high levels of responsibility. Witnessing such person in such position behaving less responsible than expected can be quite immersion-breaking, henceforth I can totally understand people discussing this topic on ooRP grounds.
Hello, did you watch the entire clip? Also the bit about how the general was relieved of command?
I understood you want the same for Rachel Baker because in your opininion she went too far. That´s okay. However there are people who see it other way. It is a matter of opinion about what is real and plausible. Nothing more, nothing less. And after all, it wasn´t any really illogical thing (like murdering innocent people in live TV broadcast, followed by military saying "that´s okay, Baker will stay in her position because otherwise she is nice person").
However obviously for you this stopped to be about Baker or even LN, but you started another general discussion about official factions. This is not right place for it. Start proper thread in proper subforum if you want continue discussing this topic. You can even use there your general negative stance against official factions.
RE: Liberty Navy [LN] - Thyrzul - 07-24-2015
(07-24-2015, 11:22 AM)Laura C. Wrote:(07-24-2015, 11:08 AM)Thyrzul Wrote:End yet from time to time inRL we see high ranking military personel acting really irresponsibly in public - see for example here (first what came to my mind). Thus it should not be immersion-breaking to see them acting in this manner in inRP world based on real one.
@Rest: One would expect that people getting into military positions requiring high levels of responsibility got into their position because they met all the requirements, including high levels of responsibility. Witnessing such person in such position behaving less responsible than expected can be quite immersion-breaking, henceforth I can totally understand people discussing this topic on ooRP grounds.
You have a point here, maybe the Vice Admiral's actions were less immersion-breaking than how LibGov tried to handle the situation afterwards. I at least would have expected more severe consequences for this level of irresponsibility or "bad PR", than what we have witnessed.
RE: Liberty Navy [LN] - Mímir - 07-24-2015
I think everyone can agree that any point of view, opinion, etc. can be put forth by any person in any position in any society.
What we are discussing is the result and ramifications of those views when they enter the public domain. Your example clearly demonstrated that within militaries (within our contemporary understanding), there are severe and direct consequences to that kind of behavior. We are asking what those consequences might be in a Disco context, and we are told that there are no consequences at all. Do you see the discrepancy?
'Real' and 'plausible' are not matters of opinion, what on earth are you smoking?
As I said countless times, this was never really about Rachel Baker for me, it is about a larger discussion in which Rachel Baker, [LN] and official factions are key focal points. I made that very clear at the offset.
RE: Liberty Navy [LN] - Alley - 07-24-2015
(07-24-2015, 11:05 AM)SpaceTime Wrote: There are two inaccuracies stated here, which I would like to correct:
- Governments are oorp constructs made by the leaders of the lawful official factions of a House. They are not inRP constructs.
- If they our responsibility, how can we change things? How we have the slightest say on how they deal with stuff?
And I would like to underline and ask something as well, though that's not specific to LibGov and especially not relevant for LN Feedback for which I apologize.
The governments undoubtedly have the biggest influence in the game after the Admins. Why? Because the Houses are the biggest entities and shape everything around a House. So I am asking:
- How can someone inflict RP consequences to a House? No one is powerful enough, and thus you are untouchable.
- Why would someone deal with an ooRP issue (as it is quoted out before) with inRoleplay actions? My personal opinion is that Oorp issues are dealt with Oorp solutions and inRP issues with inRP solutions.
If they are not inrp then what is http://discoverygc.com/forums/member.php?action=profile&uid=7867 or http://discoverygc.com/forums/member.php?action=profile&uid=19644
True that those selected to handle the things are recruited on arbitrary criterias as sometimes you'll find people with no official faction responsabilities at all sitting in these structures (ie: echo in liberty, previously havok in rheinland). but if that's oorp constructs for you then any rp ever done by these accounts equal to nothing
RE: Liberty Navy [LN] - Jihadjoe - 07-24-2015
(07-24-2015, 10:56 AM)Mímir Wrote: Either way, are we totally free to completely ignore official factions, their opinions and decrees? Then there's no issue whatsoever.
There seems to be a statement behind that question...
Let me try to decode it for your readers.
Quote:Either way, we are free to completely ignore official factions (this is what I want in all cases, always), their opinions (even when those opinions are clearly stated as not being representative of the faction in RP and are obviously those of an individual within) and decrees (which this was not)? Then (for my wishes and desires) there's no issue whatsoever
Y'know what Mimir... I think you ignoring official factions might be in everyone's best interests. You go right ahead and do that.
I'm gonna get all realtalk here, bear with me.
Let me tell you what leading an official faction, particularly this one, actually entails.
First of all, you get the role against your better judgement. You are given little opportunity to refuse it, as the people who have previously been in charge, leave, dumping it in your hands and giving you the responsbility for maintaining a legacy that is far larger than you in your position as a player. You look around, thinking "Holy shit. I've already got far too much on my plate, and now this one has been dumped on me as well."
At the time I was handed the [LN], I was already an admin, and was leading the XA-. Suddenly, I found myself trying to juggle all three of those, with free time that was rapidly disappearing into piles of paperwork, both from my real life job, and from the second, third and fourth jobs I volunteered for here in internetland.
At this point, you endeavor to look for other people who might be able to take some work off you. First of all you look for someone who could lead the faction in your stead, and if you're unlucky enough to have nobody that can do that, you begin instead to form a high command to whom you can delegate some of the work. These people have to be those you trust and know - People who you think you can work with in a productive and helpful manner... You look through faction-members and friends on skype. Now, these people will inevitably be those who you can gel with. This is the first moment at which you become accused of favouritism and creating a culture of cronyism. It's pretty tedious and tiring, but you remember that you are not actually employing people, and this is more like making an artistic collective than employing people to work for a bank (for example). You shrug and get on with making the faction as good as it can be under your leadership. Inevitably, your attitude will attract the people who find themselves in agreement with it. Those people will apply to join your faction. While this creates a stable internal environment, it increases the crys about bias and elitism and the old-boys club.
Shortly after this, you run into two things at the same time. Approximately half the indies say the following "The previous leader restricted us too much. I want you to leave all of us alone." while the other half say "We want more guidance and leadership from the official faction."
Often these messages can both come from the same individual. You attempt to seek a compromise, and inevitably get yelled at by everyone for being too hands off, or being too restrictive. In my case, I simply asked the various independants to contact me, so that I could keep track of who I was working with, and who I could contact for a fight or if there was trouble. As a result I had a feedback explosion, and a "rebel indy" group on the server who were shooting at [LN] official faction players, within six weeks of being handed leadership.
Then you run up against the following problem - Many people from other parts of sirius put demands upon you, both in and out of roleplay to prevent the independants of your faction from doing things that are illogical - For example, stopping indy LABC's from escorting traders through Kusari.
- You tell them that you cannot help, because that is an issue for the admins.
- Someone points out that you ARE an admin, and it IS your responsibility.
- You remind them that an admin cannot deal with problems related to their own faction, where there may be a conflict of interests.
- You get told that you are useless.
If you attempt to communicate with these problematic individuals either in our out of roleplay, you are told that you cannot restrict them they are free to do as they please. You shrug and go back to slowly grinding your patience into dust.
Somewhere along the line, you look at your faction and find that it is full of good people - People who care about the game and who roleplay well. You develop a bit of affection for these people. You learn to enjoy leading them in game. You give them your respect, you treat them well. You laugh and joke together and this is good. But underlying all the good times are the several directions you're being pulled inby the rest of the community.
Offer leadership to people not directly in your faction!
Don't meddle with anyone outside your faction - even offers of assistance or leadership in the field are restrictive and domineering!
Prevent your enemies from getting ganked by people of your NPC faction!
Let the indies do what they want!
You should be varying your roleplaying more! I want to see indviduality!
Only roleplay cookie cutter naval officials!
Do more diplomacy!
Don't negotiate with X!
Open recruitment to everyone without a test!
Raise your roleplay standards!
Talk more!
Do less talking! You're a navy, your job is to shoot bad guys!
Spend more time fighting the war with Rheinland! You should be raiding Hamburg!
Stay in Liberty all the time and defend traders against the pirates!
You cannot deliver on all of these demands... It is difficult and you will be criticised for it. The rewards are there - Fun, enjoyment of organising events and interactions with other groups and individual characters, the feeling you belong to something, the chance to roleplay in an interesting environment, the chance to develop a character to levels that you didn't think were possible in this environment, the feeling that you're giving something back to a community... But to get to those, you have to wade through a swamp of competing opinion.
The people who throw criticism at factions such as the [LN] often do so because they dislike an authority that sometimes acts in a way they deem unfavourable to themselves. Yet they attempt to set themselves up as a competing (often overtly morally proselytising) authority. The strange thing is that with all the demands, both in and out of roleplay, placed upon the leader of an official faction, the leader ends up with really very little power at all.
Complaining about skypefriends, favouritism, cronyism, powermongering and so on, is just like people blaming the world's problems on the jewish banking conspiracy or the 12ft shapeshifting reptiliods, or government planes with their mind-warping chemtrails... It's a security blanket. If someone can blame their problems and confusion on something - anything they can say is "in charge" - then they can avoid the more frightening truth. Nobody is in control, everything is chaos. Too many opinions push and pull at the institutions in place for them to be anything like an effective concentration of power. The community and the game is completely and utterly rudderless.
You complaining about a really very minor incident, and using it to further your agenda of knocking the official faction system down a notch or two, is much like this. You're taking a kick at a percieved authority figure - someone who represents the power to be fought, and doing it in the name of bringing an authority to accountability. But really, Quixote, you're just tilting at windmills.
Thinking back on this, it makes me feel rather sad, really.
RE: Liberty Navy [LN] - Mímir - 07-24-2015
Heyy, there you are
To be honest, I was wondering what was going on yesterday. You seemed so diplomatic in your posts, but now JudgementalJoe is back in his old form. I mean, when you run out of arguments you can always target the person, right? Well well well, I too can play that game!If you look at my very first post, I write this: "I would be lying if I was to say I really care, but on a more general level, do you not think that this kind of 'individual roleplay' in ways undermine the legitimacy of an official faction?" and also this "Yes, I am asking solely for the sake of the discussion, I have nothing against the player or the faction, but this is a topic that interested me as long as I played here." Now 10 pages later, you come to the conclusion that I have an agenda and that my questions are centered around a very clear underlying point of view. Well spotted!
Furthermore, you are the guy that constantly reduces everyone elses experiences to assumptions and then go on to write: "Y'know what Mimir... I think you ignoring official factions might be in everyone's best interests. You go right ahead and do that."
Here's the deal: I am and was a member of a host of official factions, I know full well that the official factions are a necessity and are extremely important to the server and community. That doesn't mean that factions cannot improve, and I thouroughly believe that we can only improve through critique. In short: I believe in factions, and I am trying to help them improve. That is and always have been my goal, even though it is of course far more convenient to brush everything off with the notion of me being a 'hater'. You know, when you stepped down as [LN] leader I left a positive thank you note in your thread, I appreciated the leadership role you took. I've also had a lot of positive encounters with you in-game, you fight fair and so on and so forth. You are just not very good at handling criticism, you take it for something it isn't and you combat it in an extreme fashion, and exactly that has been the cause of a lot of grief for players who do not see eye to eye with you on some matters. As a result of the cronyism, one is never just discussing with you, but always with a band of mindless +1'ers. Back in the RNC-days, you even had the head of RM log and warn our group, even though he fucking hated it and knew we'd done absolutely nothing wrong, save for annoy you by our presence - that's a problem, Joe, and one you and your ego are the sole source of.
I know full well what it entails to be in an official faction. I also have my head squarely enough planted on my shoulders to know that I am only here for recreational purposes. If I don't have fun, I try to change the situation (also by improving my own approach, based on feedback I receive from other players) or I stop playing. It's supposed to be fun, and if you aren't having fun as the Liberty Navy kingpin, why the hell do it? Why not say "yeah, there are these, these and these issues with the faction system, it's not fun and it makes us into full retards. Let's make it better", rather than fight any point of view that endangers status quo?
I'm in factions with leaders I look up to and respect, leaders who dedicated a lot of their time to give something back to the community, while also having fun playing the game. Leaders who encourage openness and differences of opinions between players within the faction. Mature leaders. You advocate for the opposite: That likeminded individuals are attracted to one another, and thus form factions. I'll have you know that a certain few factions are formed on the basis of a shared passion for the faction in question and the roleplay, while not sharing points of views or even liking the other members within the faction. Maybe you get accused of cronyism because you believe it is the only way the faction system can work? Your post reaks of a strong emphasis on "good people", "people who care about roleplay" and other such judgements, rather than taking a more mature approach and look at the larger picture.
There are some people who put a remarkable effort into Disco, and I do not claim to have done anything like that. Then there are those who believe they fall into that category simply by donning a tag or a blue forum name.
At the end of the day, is this not where the problem rests:
"You complaining about a really very minor incident, and using it to further your agenda of knocking the official faction system down a notch or two, is much like this."
What if it was never ever my intention to "knock the official faction system down a notch", what if you are absolutely and totally wrong in your judgements and assumptions? Have you ever considered that possibility?
RE: Liberty Navy [LN] - Pinko - 07-24-2015
If you have a problem with how official factions work in general, then I suggest that either bring your point elsewhere, or that you gain the level of respect required to become a Server admin, then change the system from the inside. Posting a meaningless rambling wall doesn't really mean anything otherwise, especially if your entire point is hypothetical in nature, and by now, entirely unrelated to the nature of the Liberty Navy whatsoever.
RE: Liberty Navy [LN] - Cashew - 07-24-2015
This is far from what this thread is meant to be used for. We're going to lock it for a few hours to allow the temperature to decrease.
RE: Liberty Navy [LN] - Connor - 08-02-2015
The LN feedback thread is now open for feedback again. Remember, keep it constructive and calm.
RE: Liberty Navy [LN] - Shaggy - 08-02-2015
Thanks for opening it up Snoopy, I would just like to Kudos [LN] for being a great bunch of guys ingame, always supportive and 5th and [LN] work really well together in sticky situations, normally either Rogue Gank Squad or The Torpedos or even the Gallic Invasions on Magellan. When we need help either 5th are there to support or [LN] are there back.
Keep it up guys
~Shaggy