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+--- Thread: POBs + Mining system = broken mechanic. (/showthread.php?tid=159287)
RE: POBs + Mining system = broken mechanic. - DSE|= - 03-23-2018
Dead right Darkseid667.
I have been doing an analysis of Veltman Smelter. So far, in 3 hours when less than 20 people are on, there has been one other miner, a =DSE- Franchisee I might add. And yet, given that only Franchisees can dock on Veltman, they have managed to mine and sell 60,000+ units, not even considering the amount they transport themselves.
I have been also mining myself for about 45 minutes, and no one asked for a load of ore. No pirates either.
If the base was not available to do transfers, then there would be no help in the mining.
I dropped into Port Reys, a place where I would sell off excess ore, and found there is a huge turnover of ore as well. Port Reyes has opened its doors to many merchants wishing to buy and is doing a roaring trade... 60km from any tradelane. I know that some of my franchisees will also sell their excess there. Looks like business is booming. There is no 'drama's" taking place and from previous experience piracy takes place quite regularly and easily for pirates who sneak up on miners using Veltman as a beacon/direction-finder, even with Veltman 4 - 5 km above the field.
All and all it is benefitting the game and RP.
I believe a server station 6km above or below mine fields would stop all the hoo-haa and bring order, prosperity and a great variety of piracy, trading and mining RP in and around the mine field. Based on the evidence.
Steve Veltman
=DSE- CEO
RE: POBs + Mining system = broken mechanic. - JorgeRyan - 03-23-2018
Yeah, those weapon platforms on Veltamn Smelter right above the field are really encouraging me to bring my rogue to texas and do some piracy.
Bases should be away from fields, but close enough that, with a bit of luck and skill, an average pilot can escape an average pirate that catches them in the mining field. But not too close that a pirate can't make an honest attempt to try and enforce demands (and repercussions) on said trader. I'd ballpark that 20k from the nearest edge is a good distance.
As for regulating the fields, I'm worried about some points that have been raised i.e. new players who dont know better and having their bases dissapearing overnight. I think, if community-regulation is the way we go, that the declaration still needs to be made, just so we can keep track of who is doing what and where, to who.
RE: POBs + Mining system = broken mechanic. - DSE|= - 03-23-2018
Quote: Yeah, those weapon platforms on Veltman Smelter right above the field are really encouraging me to bring my rogue to Texas and do some piracy.
Missing the point.
As for the guns, relax. Purely defensive as you would know. =DSE- is not LN nor LPI. We don't attack anyone... just defense. Don't shoot the base, you don't get shot.
Steve Veltman
=DSE- CEO
RE: POBs + Mining system = broken mechanic. - Tomas. - 03-23-2018
Have to shoot the base to stop a trader from quick docking on it...argument is circular and thus invalid.
Sorry, the whole point of placing the mining fields where they are was to carefully space them between friendly outposts that miners and traders can run to easily. Dropping a FULLY OPERATIONAL BATTLE STATION right on top of the field takes all that careful balance and....throws it out of the window.
Yes, it's good for traders, because any trader that is allied to the base is almost unassailable even with a core 2, because weapon platforms are invincible (and so can't be disabled) and, when set up correctly, can kill anything from LFs to battleships with impunity. All a trader has to do is fly around it until the platforms and lag take their toll. Group piracy and certain exceptions (bad trader pilot vs good bomber or missile cruiser come to mind offhand) change this a bit but let's face it, a trader jumped by three bombers intent on killing him shouldn't be able to live easily, if at all.
There are several instances where they have been specifically moved out of mining fields due to this. Wasn't Samura's base in Nagano moved at least once, as an example?
RE: POBs + Mining system = broken mechanic. - NOVA-5 - 03-23-2018
Can you stop saying Veltman & it's platforms are 4 - 5 km above the field please,
we all know it's right inside the field.
I've never been a big miner but i must say that Veltman being there puts me off for
fear of hitting it and having the sanctions you were asking about in the first place.
Not sure if that was the tactic from the start but it's working for me anyway.
You had 20 people on this morning, tomorrow you'll have nnnnn 19.
RE: POBs + Mining system = broken mechanic. - Laura C. - 03-23-2018
(03-23-2018, 10:15 AM)DSE|-CEO Wrote:Quote: Yeah, those weapon platforms on Veltman Smelter right above the field are really encouraging me to bring my rogue to Texas and do some piracy.
Missing the point.
As for the guns, relax. Purely defensive as you would know. =DSE- is not LN nor LPI. We don't attack anyone... just defense. Don't shoot the base, you don't get shot.
So pirates have two choices. Either let trader or miner escape by docking because almost everybody can make it 5k (it seems some say the base actually is not even that far from the mining zone, but that´s not the point now) even under fire, maybe except when pirate has a cruiser, or shoot the station to raise the shield to prevent them from docking and be very likely destroyed by the weapon platforms. You still do not see the problem?
RE: POBs + Mining system = broken mechanic. - LaWey - 03-23-2018
Veltman defenitely on 1-1.5k off from field edge. Dont know how far his platforms. When i just do waypoint into negra, im mostly arrive on 3-4k away from Veltman. Never had problems with is. Turret range less then distanse from mining zone edge to Veltman.
RE: POBs + Mining system = broken mechanic. - NOVA-5 - 03-23-2018
The whole 1k now is it, they're mining inside the zone to undock chars to suck it all up.
If i mined from where they do & hit the base; you think i'd not have a problem with it,
i'd be the scrap you's are mining up.
Can't even have a piss in my own back garden now.
RE: POBs + Mining system = broken mechanic. - Chronicron - 03-23-2018
Or
Just make a rule that no PoBs should be allowed in mining fields. Simple as that.
RE: POBs + Mining system = broken mechanic. - Sand_Spider - 03-23-2018
At the risk of "choosing a side" on this whole debate, let me put in my two cents. Or, rather two hundred cents, since this post ended up being longer than I anticipated. I know it's a WALL of text to sort through, but I have no TL;DR statement on this situation, simply because I can't explain my take on things within a few sentences.
Personally, I'm okay with bases inside of mining fields given the proper circumstances. If a player as a miner has enough integrity to stick outside of a base for the sake of RP, even if a pirate shows up on scanners, then I'm okay with a base inside of a mining field. Unfortunately, I realize that not everyone has a sense of integrity or sportsmanship, and some might choose to mash F3 the moment they see red on their radar.
Miners, in my opinion, should be more susceptible to piracy than traders. They sit in one spot for 5-20 minutes at a time with a ship outfitted for mining, not combat. What pirate in their right mind would pass up a target like that? From the pirate's perspective, miner > trader.
Let me further elaborate upon "proper circumstances."
Is a base within a mining field open for docking to both miners and pirates alike?
Yes?
Does said base have weapons platforms?
No?
Then such a base seems kosher to me. To name a base, Copper Storage Depot is like this. It's a Freelancer base, meaning that a pirate can log off on the base, come back later, and pop a surprise on any miners within the field, activate the base shield, and get a few easy credits.
Let's analyze a second base: Veltman Smelter.
Does this base allow public docking?
No.
This is a good start! That means only a select few individuals have the chance to hide on Veltman the moment a pirate shows up.
Does this base have weapons platforms inside of a mining field?
Yes.
And this is where, in my mind, the potential for complaints begins. By plopping down a lawful tagged base with weapons inside of a mining field, you've just prevented any sort of piracy RP encounters whatsoever for the sake of "defense."
If Veltman had no weapons platforms, I would be totally A-OK with it.
By and large, players tend to play pirates to give the traders and miners a sense of danger. Pirate characters net profits per hour are maybe one tenth of a miner's or trader's? And that's assuming there are other players online, and also assuming the pirate can even catch a transport. Many transports watch the player list and will go for an alternate route if they suspect a pirate. Even today, miners have to sit in one spot to get what they want. Transports could be anywhere. Of course pirates would go for the miners first, because they can consistently be found in the same exact location every single time!
Now, playing devil's advocate here: I like supplying the Copper Storage Depot. It's right inside of a mining field, so I can use a freighter instead of a Hegemon. I have an odd time zone, so there aren't always other players online when I'm around. It's dang convenient to have a Freelancer base out in Kansas where I can pop online for 10-15 minutes at a time and just snag a few credits here and there. I also consider myself principled enough that I intentionally prevent myself from docking on the Depot the moment a pirate shows up. Why? Because these days, I am happy and proud to see a player willing to play a pirate despite all of the obstacles they face. I'm the sort of person who values RP > Profit, and I relish the chance of seeing what life on the other side of the law is like for each individual.
The reality is that not everyone has my chipper mindset, and will simply REFUSE to pay a pirate, and will by gods, VERY happily mash that F3 key the moment they see the dreaded RED.
Now, as convenient as bases in mining fields are, they... Honestly, really truly do kill a lot of encounters, simply due to the fact that many of them are lawful bases, which means pirates have no docking access, and ergo, whom can never hope to catch a miner before they have a chance to dock.
If a base is inside of a mining field, it should not have weapons platforms. This is simply driving people from wanting to play pirates, and consequently, from even wanting to log in the first place, in cases where some players only play unlawfuls. You lose nothing but time or a bit of money from letting a pirate hit you up in a mining field. They make a pittance few million credits per hour to a miner's few dozen million per hour.
I've been the miner, the trader, and the pirate in these encounters. I've been around for a while. Let me tell you miners something: It won't kill you to Role Play with a pirate. It won't kill you to pay them. It won't kill you to give them some ore, scrap, or what have you. All it's going to do is cost you time. Time, which the pirate is GIVING to you by interacting with you. If you're so worried over losing profit per hour, pay the pirate and just go back to mining. To those who mash F3: You are literally losing time and money by choosing to dock and hide on a base.
Keep in mind: There is a player behind the keyboard of that pirate who wants to enjoy the game as much as you do. I am begging you to indulge them. You might be surprised - it might just be a memorable Role Play!
In the end, I'm still torn on the issue of PoBs in mining fields. But at the very least, they should NOT have weapons platforms, and they should also be open docking to all. Unfortunately, due to House Role Play Laws, the latter is probably impossible in some cases. By plopping down weapons platforms inside of a tiny mining field, you not only A: Kill off the pirate/miner encounter (Which remember: Miners sit in one spot. Transports don't. Miners are non-combat ships. Pirate: Miner > Transport), but you also B: Put your base at an even greater risk of being gank-sieged by a swarm of pirates who have earned your ire.
As a final note, POBs such as Port Reys are a perfect compromise. They're far enough away from a mining field that a pirate has a chance to blow up a miner if they decide to run, but they're close enough that a mining ship doesn't have to go too far out of their way to unload. Without even looking to see who can dock here, the placement is logical, balanced, and fair for traders, miners and pirates alike. In fact, a base like Port Reys doesn't even need weapons platforms, because sieging it as a group of pirates would be illogical - Why kill the golden goose when you can scoop up the eggs?
I apologize for naming bases, here. But, I feel like someone needed to step up and say what needed to be said.