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+------ Thread: Harvester (/showthread.php?tid=7764)
Harvester - Snapp - 04-19-2008
I believe it was stated in an earlier reply that the encounters and the targeting of Zoners and [TAZ] had been reduced drastically, and that most encounters now are just chance ones.
It also stands to reason that when/if the "machine alliance" gets thier own system/id they wouldnt be in others' space nearly as much, and therefore the encounters wouldnt be as often.
As for playing a Zoner just to avoid combat... Cmon now... This is a game filled with guns and big ships, if you want to avoid combat then play offline or atleast try not to go into known hostile areas... Sell the guns on your ship so your a non-combatant if thats the case... If someone attacks and kills an unarmed ship then they should be reported because thats just a low thing to do... I've gone without guns before and was left alone...
Harvester - ScornStar - 04-19-2008
' Wrote:I believe that you have missed the point, ScornStar...
Many people RP as Zoners to avoid combat, because they enjoy peaceful RP, as Zoners are entitled to. What has been going on between the Harvesters and Zoners seems to be forcing people to PvP and stripping them of this right.
EDIT: I'm not talking about the TAZ, but the independent Zoners.
Sorry buddy I disagree with you nobody has the right to fly around unmolested by anyone on the server. No one is immune to conflict, no one is immune to RP. The safety net is on a lan line. RP and all story revolve around conflict, riaseing tension, climax, resolution, and in the case of a server like this repeat the cycle till your bored and leave.
They do have a ID for folks who want to fly around and RP peacefully(power trade) its the neutral ID. I hope you take no offence I just could not disagree more on this one. Heck in Fellow Hoodlum own words he said the Zoner tag is the most whored for that very reason I believe. Also I may want to run cardamine peacefully and the Cops WILL interdict. I may want to run Diamonds peacefully and the pirates, Kusari, and Rhineland WILL interdict. I effect alot less people. plus the ZOner are our present targets who knows what the future will bring.
Harvester - Malaclypse 666 - 04-19-2008
As one Zoner's paradigm, I don't mind combat at all. I have the will, and the means.
' Wrote:As for playing a Zoner just to avoid combat... Cmon now... This is a game filled with guns and big ships, if you want to avoid combat then play offline or atleast try not to go into known hostile areas... Sell the guns on your ship so your a non-combatant if thats the case... If someone attacks and kills an unarmed ship then they should be reported because thats just a low thing to do... I've gone without guns before and was left alone...
The last time I checked, Zoner NPC patrols were armed... and your suggesting that zoners don't belong in online endeavors seemed a tad insulting. I hope I've misunderstood you.
Cheers,
Mal
Edit: I just reread your position, and now see the clause allowing that there are sombunall "combative" Zoners. Now I understand you. I am dis-insulted.
Mal
Harvester - ScornStar - 04-19-2008
I am dis-insulted.
Did you invent that phrase? Cool.
Harvester - pchwang - 04-20-2008
ScornStar, that's why we have pirates and terrorists. Pirates who attack random traders without discrimination, and terrorists who do the same.
What you are proposing is different from that.
Your actions are forcing a peaceful faction(the Zoners) to militarize, because your targets are extremely specific. A lot of the people you're targeting are not the Zoner ID whores. Frankly, for me to accept your proposal, you're going to have to seriously broaden your spectrum of enemies.
Let me clarify with a metaphor. In the United States, we once had "hippies," peace loving people. We did not have an organization targeted at killing these people. Sure, these people still got mugged, assualted, attacked, killed, robbed, and raped by random criminals, but they weren't specifically targeted.
Don't force the Zoner's ingame RP to change based on your personal RP...
Harvester - Snapp - 04-20-2008
' Wrote:ScornStar, that's why we have pirates and terrorists. Pirates who attack random traders without discrimination, and terrorists who do the same.
What you are proposing is different from that.
Your actions are forcing a peaceful faction(the Zoners) to militarize, because your targets are extremely specific. A lot of the people you're targeting are not the Zoner ID whores. Frankly, for me to accept your proposal, you're going to have to seriously broaden your spectrum of enemies.
Let me clarify with a metaphor. In the United States, we once had "hippies," peace loving people. We did not have an organization targeted at killing these people. Sure, these people still got mugged, assualted, attacked, killed, robbed, and raped by random criminals, but they weren't specifically targeted.
Don't force the Zoner's ingame RP to change based on your personal RP...
Elgato, I know your reply is directed at Scornstar, but i'll repeat this since you don't seem to understand and or didn't read the previous posts stating these things.
Zoner's are not the primary targets, Zoners are no longer specifially targeted or hunted, and nowdays "most" encounters with Zoners are "chance" meetings. Zoner Traders were largely left alone even when they were being targeted. I've stated this twice now, and Scornstar has stated this aswell. There is also current RP going on where the machines have asked Zoners to help to "fix" a problem with thier "code".
Machine targets and enemies, this is easy, don't shoot at them and they prolly won't shoot at you. Unless youve given them reason to in the past.
So it seems clear to me that either you havent read many posts, havent been in-game around them, you simply have selective sight when reading posts, or you have no clue whats going on with rp between the two groups. Don't take this as an insult, its just that you keep bringing up a point that has allready been answered and is being resolved in RP.
As far as forcing a "peacefull" faction to militarize. 2 points about this.
1. Angels are "neutral" and get no breaks: Nomads, Keepers, and Phantoms are still hostile and will attack, but they don't specifically target the angels.
2. Traders are "peacefull" and get no breaks: Pirates are hostile and will attack them. They are "forced" to militarize by hiring escorts, buying better guns, ect ect.
Why should Zoners get special attention when not a single other group on this server does?
Like i stated before, Zoners aren't being specifically targeted anymore and even if they were. What your suggesting is special treatment in my opinion. Most Zoners are in capships (destroyer) and thus were allready "militirized" if you ask me.
Hypothetical situation:
Harvesters make Zoners the #1 enemy and KoS all Zoner ID'ed ships. (in rp ofcourse)
-- Is this any different than the order having BH as #1 enemy? NO.
-- Is this any different than humans in general (not just militaries) being the #1 enemy of nomads? NO.
-- If this were true and they did what you suggest, wouldnt that be "forcing" Zoner RP on the Harvesters, just as you say they force it on the Zoners now.
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However Elgato, i do agree with you that the reputation listing is a bit vague right now. But isnt that the point of these posts, to iron these things out with other people so that everyone is happy?
PS: Scorn, you need to update the main post more often to reflect changes and suggestions that are implemented.
EDIT: The hippy comment: Yes there was "still is" an organisation for dealing with "hippies", it's called the U.S. government, and they may not have killed them outright, they didnt hesitate to thrown them in jail, beat them, or spray them with water cannons or pepper spray. Not some random people, or some terrorists, THIER OWN GOVERNMENT did it.
Harvester - pchwang - 04-20-2008
Quote:As far as forcing a "peacefull" faction to militarize. 2 points about this.This is exactly what I am stating in my post. They don't discriminate between targets. The Keepers, Phantoms, and pirates will attack these people, but without discrimination. Remember that The Angels are not entirely part of the RP structure. They do RP, but they are mainly there to help out newbies.
1. Angels are "neutral" and get no breaks: Nomads, Keepers, and Phantoms are still hostile and will attack, but they don't specifically target the angels.
2. Traders are "peacefull" and get no breaks: Pirates are hostile and will attack them. They are "forced" to militarize by hiring escorts, buying better guns, ect ect.
You, on the other hand, are discriminating. This is why your RP cannot possibly fit that of a faction...it's perfect for an RP group and a group of others who are willing to RP with you, but it's far too specific for you to base it on others who are uninvolved.
Quote:Hypothetical situation:It is very very different. The BHG is a combat oriented faction, and so is the Order. The Zoners are not combat oriented. Through your personal RP involvement with the Zoners, you are changing their vanilla RP.
Harvesters make Zoners the #1 enemy and KoS all Zoner ID'ed ships. (in rp ofcourse)
-- Is this any different than the order having BH as #1 enemy? NO.
-- Is this any different than humans in general (not just militaries) being the #1 enemy of nomads? NO.
-- If this were true and they did what you suggest, wouldnt that be "forcing" Zoner RP on the Harvesters, just as you say they force it on the Zoners now.
Finally, explain "chance" encounter...what do you mean by that exactly?
And I don't have a problem with the vagueness of your rep list...It's fine right now.
EDIT: Right...in response to your response to my hippie comment... That's because those hippies broke the law, hint hint.
Are the Zoner's breaking any laws? *Looks around* Don't think so.
Harvester - Malaclypse 666 - 04-20-2008
Quick aside to you all..
Pierre, Snapp is correct. The Zoners are comtemplating a small peaceful "expedition" to Gammu, to try and help them find or rebuild their damn code. And things have quieted significantly while those arrangements are being made.
Your comment about forcing Zoners to militarize.. well, yes and no. We've always had Indy Zoners about trading in monster caps.. You know who I mean. While their behavior and RP isn't exactly "Zonerish", I've given up on trying to convince them of such.. it's a fact of life.
The TAZ resisted the urge until recently, but could have continued to resist the urge go beef up our defensive capabilities. Times change.. and I suppose the TAZ needs to change to keep up. Just think of us as peaceful, neutral hippies with real good escort potential.
We've had our share of TAZ and Zoners alike who wanted to go "eradicate" the Harvesters. I was in that camp myself for a short while. It's still a possibility... but so is a peaceful solution. Hodge/Podge.
Cheers,
Mal
Harvester - ScornStar - 04-20-2008
Ok if I have trader and want that vinella feel, and want to move Nomad brains and cannons to Cambridge through the Alaska Jump gate, how many player factional p[roblems will I potentially encounter?
If I just want to fly around in a Britonian ship with Nomad cannons and and hunt blood dragons, what problems are we going to encounter there?
My point is vinella is long gone. Forget it we came here because vinella was boreing. It has played out. Now if we fear a new faction because it is different and only allow factions that have NPC counter parts then we are stagnateing and becomeing boreing.
Now the Zoners carry guns and have big scary ships for a reason. Its because they live mostly in the edgeworlds were anything can happen and the unknown is possible. In unknown case chances are you may have to defend your self, thus guns. Zoners are not our only targets they just have the lion's portion of the RP.
Rp that even now is being addressed within the Zoner council (give it a read they have good chats and are entertaining) The TAZ message dumps have some good chewing gum for the mind as well. So, the ZOner seem to be on top of thier bussiness.
Now if we stayed a group we would not have as much to lose for misuse of our RP, if we stayed just a group we could do many things that are irresponsible yet with in server rules with no recourse. But by being a faction we have more to lose and more incentive to keep things civil on a personal level.
The only way we will cease targeting Zoners is through RP. No amount of ooRP chats will change that. And as a matter of a fact the Harvesters havent hunted a single ZOner in week. Ask the Zoners.
Next one side says enemies "too specific changeing play" and on the other side "too many enemies PVP whores" Sorry the Zoner NPC and player are integral to the creation of this back story. They are like peanut butter and jelly.
As a Zoner you have two things that will help you. Your guns and your comm channel. Now while our enemies list may be small. That by no means, indicates that we get to fly where we want. We get attacked by pirates, police, traders, terrorist, militaries, Nomads, Outcast, and resistance groups. Further more when we are attacked they ussually get the first volley as we have to make a show of RPing to show we are not PVP whores only. Then the next time we encounter them or another of our units encounters them, they attack immediately after saying "commence harvest".
Zoners are not a "hello-goodbye immune to PVP", RP faction, they live in the same "liveing" sector as the rest of our characters.
New Zoners are ussually left alone, PMed to check the forums ZOner council page, I'm sure you have nothing wrong with trying to get more to the forums. Also they are given a brief sum up so, if they dont read the forums they will understand the next meeting.
What better way to get folks to the forums than to invite them to be apart of something they can only learn about on the forums, if we stay vinella all the way then this place will get old fast. With folks just throwing together half harted stories to excuse thier use of their favorite ship.
At least with an element of the unknown (unique characters and stories) even the vinella factions have something to look forward to. not just the same unresolvable wars, unending unchangeing turf fights, and same lane to police and pirate. I like to see something new. Things like the Keepers, while I know little about them, and the Phantoms, and SCRA, and CR, and CYLONS were all intreging to me because I had no idea what they were.
I never heard of Battlestar Galactica before I came here. So, that was neat to learn of them. Besides if things keep going the way they are the CR will have a new AI to battle. Since the CYLONs went unofficail and merged with the Harvesters.
Anyway I think the ZOners are fine. If you want an untouchable character play a neutral. Nuff said, ZOners are targets till they RP us off thier backs. (which they are now)
Thank you for posting here and allowing me to respond.
' Wrote:Elgato, I know your reply is directed at Scornstar, but i'll repeat this since you don't seem to understand and or didn't read the previous posts stating these things.
Zoner's are not the primary targets, Zoners are no longer specifially targeted or hunted, and nowdays "most" encounters with Zoners are "chance" meetings. Zoner Traders were largely left alone even when they were being targeted. I've stated this twice now, and Scornstar has stated this aswell. There is also current RP going on where the machines have asked Zoners to help to "fix" a problem with thier "code".
Machine targets and enemies, this is easy, don't shoot at them and they prolly won't shoot at you. Unless youve given them reason to in the past.
So it seems clear to me that either you havent read many posts, havent been in-game around them, you simply have selective sight when reading posts, or you have no clue whats going on with rp between the two groups. Don't take this as an insult, its just that you keep bringing up a point that has allready been answered and is being resolved in RP.
As far as forcing a "peacefull" faction to militarize. 2 points about this.
1. Angels are "neutral" and get no breaks: Nomads, Keepers, and Phantoms are still hostile and will attack, but they don't specifically target the angels.
2. Traders are "peacefull" and get no breaks: Pirates are hostile and will attack them. They are "forced" to militarize by hiring escorts, buying better guns, ect ect.
Why should Zoners get special attention when not a single other group on this server does?
Like i stated before, Zoners aren't being specifically targeted anymore and even if they were. What your suggesting is special treatment in my opinion. Most Zoners are in capships (destroyer) and thus were allready "militirized" if you ask me.
Hypothetical situation:
Harvesters make Zoners the #1 enemy and KoS all Zoner ID'ed ships. (in rp ofcourse)
-- Is this any different than the order having BH as #1 enemy? NO.
-- Is this any different than humans in general (not just militaries) being the #1 enemy of nomads? NO.
-- If this were true and they did what you suggest, wouldnt that be "forcing" Zoner RP on the Harvesters, just as you say they force it on the Zoners now.
-----------
However Elgato, i do agree with you that the reputation listing is a bit vague right now. But isnt that the point of these posts, to iron these things out with other people so that everyone is happy?
PS: Scorn, you need to update the main post more often to reflect changes and suggestions that are implemented.
EDIT: The hippy comment: Yes there was "still is" an organisation for dealing with "hippies", it's called the U.S. government, and they may not have killed them outright, they didnt hesitate to thrown them in jail, beat them, or spray them with water cannons or pepper spray. Not some random people, or some terrorists, THIER OWN GOVERNMENT did it.
Hey if I missed something please PM me what you think I've missed. I'm very busy but I do not want to disappoint.
Harvester - Snapp - 04-20-2008
I personally am not a harvester, but i do rp with them in-game as a member of this "alliance".
Being machines where the main goal is to harvest "biomaterial". That means humans, nomads, ect ect. Indescriminately harvest ALL bioforms, in the grand scheme of things.
The Zoners are only involved because they "have" or "will help fix" a code that the machines must have to grow. Zoners asked that they be made hostile to Harvesters.
As stated before the harvesters are just a "part" of the faction as a whole, which may have other machines who couldnt give a crap about harvesting anything. They may just want to be a part of the faction that is based on machines being brought together into one group. No different than a bh group, or a trading group of independants. In this case it was started by the harvesters, binary, and cylons since indy machines simply cant afford to start something like this on thier own. A true Machine Alliance was formed, 3 groups of "machines" banding together and welcomming other machines to join.
Binary for example. Binary will not attack ANYONE unless they are fired on first, given a very specific order, or if they had been attacked by that ship or group before. They also will not shoot nomads, zoners, or the order and don't like it when Harvesters start hunting them. But because of how nomads (keepers) ignored Binary. and because of the alliance, we are willing to look the other way when this happens and "may" eventually take up a position hostile to nomads specifically.
This is what makes the alliance unique, not everyone in the "race of machines" has the same programming and RP as Harvesters.
If Zoners arent "combat" oriented, and don't wish for combat, then the ones who arent, shouldnt have a problem giving up thier destroyers and other combat ready ships. "Vanilla" Zoner RP to me puts them all in eagles, trading vessels, or smaller. I doubt you'll find many Zoners willing to agree to this. So to me they made thier "combat readiness" choice the moment they bought a ship other than a freighter. This goes for ANYONE in ANY faction.
"chance encounter" - Means that harvesters don't go out of thier way to find zoners and fight them. Atleast to my knowledge this hasnt happened in awhile. Most of the times i can think of was simply passing through the system or base where they met, and even then harvesters give them the option to leave before the harvest commences.
The main post does need a lil spit and polish though.
Hippys: I know what you mean, but most hippys that got that kind of treatment back then were simply "hanging out" or sitting in a field minding thier own buisness. They were treated that way simply because they were there and refused to leave a place they felt they had a right to be. No different than a corsair telling you to leave gamma, and then you get blasted because you didnt. Is is your fault for not leaving, or is it the fault of the poeple trying to "oppress" you?