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+--- Thread: Proposal: ID changes for 4.87 (/showthread.php?tid=98543)
RE: Proposal: ID changes for 4.87 - Vladimir - 05-15-2013
(05-15-2013, 08:49 AM)AeternusDoleo Wrote: Vlad. You're complaining about the ZoI being vague currently, so your proposal to fix this vagueness is to not define it clearly? That... makes little sense. Some factions don't have a ZoI, yes, because their ZoI is siriuswide. In that case there's no point in mentioning it.
Blodo and Aerelm have been harping on me about the ZoIs being too restrictive for some factions, and that the cargo limitations for unlawful factions aren't a good idea. I can see the point in that I suppose - but I'm slightly worried about quasilawful IDs in combination with 5K transies becoming another unexpected powertrade combo. Dock lawful, dock unlawful, "Hey pirate, don't hit me, I'm your friend." "Hey police, don't hit me, I'm not doing anything wrong and my cargo is legal." Turning Zonerzonering into junkerjunkering or hoghogging does not an improvement make.
Well, yeah. ZOIs are vague and really waay too unclear, so i popose to remove them at all. I mean, it's like tech chart system. Old system was based on personal relations and things like that. Current ZOI situation reminds me of this. Every time something gets changed, it's a huge argument all over again. Why not let people decide for themselves and only hurt those who are doing retarded stuff for trolling, not rp, like those oc id'ed corvos in omega-3.
As for quasilawful IDs becoming powertraders, i personally have never seen any unlawful or quasilawful trader trading for profit itself EVER. So really, big transports only serve for better roleplay. Unless zoners are not lawful, yeah. But, say, Hessians, Unioners and other guys with clear enemies to fight certainly aren't in danger of becoming zonerzoners.
RE: Proposal: ID changes for 4.87 - Karst - 05-15-2013
(05-15-2013, 04:40 PM)AeternusDoleo Wrote: Then your proposal is to completely restrict Freelancer and Pirate IDs to civilian technology (IE no fancy ships and weapons)? That would also be a drawback, especially where gunboats are concerned.
No - it's perfectly fine the way it is now. Freelancers don't have access to the largest transports, cruisers, or battleships, and using faction ships and guns means lower power and possibly trouble with the factions that own them.
Side note: Regarding gunboats; I wouldn't have a problem if freelancers/pirates couldn't fly faction gunboats unless they gained inrp permission to use them since it seems very unlikely that they'd be able to acquire them otherwise.
However, this was removed to curb oorp faction leader decisions I believe, which is understandable, and it's problematic anyway since not all factions are officially represented.
Higher nerf on gunboats might be an option, but that would unjustly punish players that roleplayed with the faction that makes them to gain access. I see no simple solution here.
(05-15-2013, 04:46 PM)Rodnas Wrote: This is leading away fromm the threads topic - but to me "freelancer" is the name of a single player game and for singleplayer the concept of freelancing and total independence works very well. For multiplayer where each of our actions influences the gaminig experiance of others - in order to stop people who only care about their own fun and give a wet towel about other peoples fun IDs and rules are needed.
So far the generic IDs (ok, not the miner one) have the freedom to change their allegiance with a line of text or if neccessary with as little as a /droprep command. This is absolute freedom of where to go and who to work with and whatever.
Furthermore, generic IDs have the nice possibility to mix and match to cater to their playstyle or simply pick between the (most of the)most powerful options, so they are mechanically superior, too.
The special case of the pirate ID is that it is as easily misused for bad player behaviour, this is a rp server and as is every pirate can simply demand 30-50 mil from anyone without fear of going over the top ruleswise and go and shoot everyone up ( or simply do the former /l1 10 sec of waiting /l2 pew pew combo)
Faction IDs simply add atmosphere to the game, help to orient in the player-player interactions without being prohibitive and at least try to curbstomp the worst offenders.
Summed up: generic IDs offer you absolute freedom of choice even within one gaming session, perfect equipment and are easily misused - while having absolutely no drawback at all. This is unfair to all factionized players who use waht they are given to make the best out of it. Less Freelancer and more Factionlancer is needed if you ask me.
Also- i want to emphatize that by no means all generic id players/chars are bad in any way- there are great ones out there, sadly they have to pay for the misbehaviour of others ( as everyone, too)
Some points here: I don't see how you can claim that freelancers have superior technology. That is taken care of by tech nerf - if they mix & match different faction ships and guns, they will suffer the consequences: reduced power, and possible inrp issues with the factions.
They have more choices, of course, but not necessarily better ones.
More factionlancer is fine; but this should be achieved by improving factions, not by limiting freelancers and pirates.
The basic principle of a freelancer being able to choose their allegiance (or lack thereof), area of operation, and general occupation should remain.
About the pirate ID specifically: Yes, there are people that abuse it to lolwutpirate.
But how is this any different from any other unlawful ID?
80% of all lolwut Pirates I see aren't generic Pirates. I daresay generic Pirates are more often non-lolwuts than several unlawful factions, specifically Outcasts and Hessians.
RE: Proposal: ID changes for 4.87 - SummerMcLovin - 05-15-2013
I've brought this up before, but I will do so again while it is being discussed. If all these IDs now have specific lines to allow them to overrule 6.6 (which is the point of these lines), I assume those who do not have the line will not be able to do so without making a demand? If so, then that would be the current interpretation of the rules; can houses at war with each other blow up transports without making a demand? Doesn't even look like intelligence factions can do so with a specific cargo piracy line.
RE: Proposal: ID changes for 4.87 - Duvelske - 05-15-2013
(05-14-2013, 04:57 PM)AeternusDoleo Wrote: ; dsy_license_gd_im_grpMay i ask why zoners have a house nerf then with their transports? as IMG has even access to battleships? And may dock with more cargo within house space. Also i wonder then why do the other mining factions don't have access to battleships? I hope seriously this is a typo?
500640
NAME
Independent Miners Guild ID
500641
INFOCARD
Independent Miners Guild
The Independent Miners Guild is a mining corporation that is not affiliated with any house. It focuses on mining and shipbuilding outside of the House systems, and will sometimes trade with unlawful factions such as the Mollys and Hessians. The IMG is allied with the Colonial Republic and partnered with ALG and Gateway. Its enemies include the Outcasts and Corsairs.
Pilot carrying this lawful ID is an Independent Miners Guild member who:
- Can attack pirates and terrorists in self-defense, to protect an allied or neutral lawful ship, or in defense of corporate bases of the same affiliation within and outside their Zone of Influence.
- Can hunt pirates and terrorists within their Zone of Influence.
- Can hunt ships belonging to houses or organisations considered hostile by the IMG within their Zone of Influence.
- Can demand Slaves and Cardamine from any ship carrying them and destroy those who refuse to comply within their Zone of Influence.
- Can treat all Outcast vessels as combat targets.
- Can engage in piracy against Kruger, Daumann, GMS and BMM in the Taus and Omegas only.
- Cannot land on Kruger, Daumann, GMS or BMM bases.
- Cannot use any transport with more than 4,200 cargo.
- Cannot ally with any unlawfuls except with Red Hessians or Mollys, against unlawfuls only.
- Cannot participate in unlawful actions except as described above.
Zone of Influence: Taus, Omega-3, Omega-7, Dublin, Cambridge, Newcastle, Magellan, Coronado
Allowed ships: Fighters, Freighters, Transports, Gunboats, Cruisers, Battleships
EDIT: yeah i did hear it from summer was on the to do list. sorry forgot to edit this one Jack
RE: Proposal: ID changes for 4.87 - Jack_Henderson - 05-15-2013
Duvelske, IMG will get the cargo nerf.
AD copied it onto his list of to-do changes.
RE: Proposal: ID changes for 4.87 - Exdeathevn - 05-15-2013
(05-15-2013, 08:38 AM)AeternusDoleo Wrote: Giving them both the "may defend allied ships" and "may ally with unlawful and lawful groups" basically extends their ZoI siriuswide for the purposes of protecting other ships. It turns that faction into a mercenary one. Not good. The Corse are described as a highly organised crime syndicate with strong ties/influence with the Gallic government. I can't see how collapsing that government (and risking their influence) would help their cause. I can't help it if some people took the Corse ID and applied what is basically Council roleplay to it.
What do you feel the -entire- Corse ID should be? And keep in mind that the Junker and Hogosha IDs as quasilawful ones should be looking similar. Basic gist: May dock on lawful and unlawful bases, may not commit unlawful acts inside house space.
The Corse weren't part of the Quillian exodus. They have no bases in or near Bretonia, and if the UC are supporting enemies of the Crown, they'd -definately- not be using GRN facilities or facilities under heavy scrutiny by the GRN. The Bretonian occupied territories are not plausible for the UC.
The main problem I see, and this is a day after seeing this thread and calming down (unfortunately I woke up to seeing this, and I'm cranky in the mornings) is that the ID doesn't appear to take into account any of the roleplay and direction we've been working towards, regardless that we're still only pending through our Official Faction request.The in-game infocard clearly mentions one of the possible reasoning's behind us Corse having anti-goverment ideas, not to mention our subtle aid with the Fallen Grace rebellion. While we do have our moments of unlawful actions, we've established ourselves in such a way that not all of our members are Royalist supporters. We don't have internal squabbles due to our focus on the cash, which is what any Black-Market leader should be keeping their eyes on, the stock markets and commodity trends. We do keep our eyes on these, trading both lawfully and lawlessly.
Our fighting the Outcasts (and thus their allies) as another instance, an attempt to drop Cardamine and raise chances of Nox sales (despite rarely trading in this commodity and simply relying on being the producers from the shadows). In short, similar to a drug-cartel war. Excursions with transport ships to other Houses, we're making our mark as smugglers of Cryocubes as another instance of unlawfulness (at least within Gallia).
Anyway, I thought I'd point this out and leave Teerin or other UC to respond further on this one. Don't trust myself to say more, as it's the morning again here and I've woken up and immediately looked at this before going for my morning coffee, but something had to be said. I'm not suggesting giving us both of those lines, as I appreciate limitations, but had to share my thoughts on it so far and don't want to think of our actions as being made redundant.
[/my 2cents]
RE: Proposal: ID changes for 4.87 - AeternusDoleo - 05-16-2013
Then propose an alternative. If the UC ID drifts into the anti-royalist camp it'll leave no unlawful faction pro-royalist. It'll also set the stage for the UC becoming a fully unlawful faction if the government ties are being cut. But that's for future roleplay, not this instant.
RE: Proposal: ID changes for 4.87 - AeternusDoleo - 05-16-2013
Revision 4 posted. Hopefully this is getting somewhere. Main changes: ZoIs reevaluated, might still not be perfect. "May treat as combat target" tuned down in many cases. The worry that this would promote less instead of more roleplay is valid - it's in many cases replaced with shooting transports with specific cargo instead (such as FA/LWB shooting any Synth-loaded ships).
Cargo allowance on unlawful IDs remains something on the to-decide list.
RE: Proposal: ID changes for 4.87 - Hone - 05-16-2013
So ATM BPA would be sanctioned for escorting a prison or diplomatic convoy to Liberty?
RE: Proposal: ID changes for 4.87 - monmarfori - 05-16-2013
(05-14-2013, 04:57 PM)Ageira Technologies ID Wrote: - Can hunt Lane Hackers and Solar Engineering outside their Zone of Influence.Why does Ageira like to hunt Solar Engineering? What's the reason about that?
And, does synthgel exist in 4.86 or only in 4.87?