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+----- Thread: Liberty Navy [LN] Feedback Thread (/showthread.php?tid=11128)
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RE: Liberty Navy [LN] - Arbs - 01-29-2018
Haha, thanks for the feedback Lerdi. Sorry for the party pooper in the end. Was a nice fight indeed. Will try to be there more often.
RE: Liberty Navy [LN] - mayu20 - 01-29-2018
I was powering the engines to leave the area. I said that is not nice after they started shooting at me. I was not pirating anyone. I asked in local if "I can have the scrap after the fight" since, you know, junker ID junker IFF. I am not upset or anything, I didn't die either, I just hope in the future there would be less aggressive actions for no reason.
RE: Liberty Navy [LN] - SnakThree - 01-29-2018
(01-29-2018, 10:10 PM)mayu20 Wrote: I was powering the engines to leave the area. I said that is not nice after they started shooting at me. I was not pirating anyone. I asked in local if "I can have the scrap after the fight" since, you know, junker ID junker IFF. I am not upset or anything, I didn't die either, I just hope in the future there would be less aggressive actions for no reason.
Register your Z-line ships with Liberty for a fee.
RE: Liberty Navy [LN] - Arbs - 01-29-2018
(01-29-2018, 10:10 PM)mayu20 Wrote: I was powering the engines to leave the area. I said that is not nice after they started shooting at me. I was not pirating anyone. I asked in local if "I can have the scrap after the fight" since, you know, junker ID junker IFF. I am not upset or anything, I didn't die either, I just hope in the future there would be less aggressive actions for no reason.
As I said. Charging up cruise engines when stopped means attempting to get away from law enforcement. Which gets you shot. I can't be any clearer than that.
You were not told to leave. The Pilot, John Mayer was told to show you the way out. In military slang that means "Escort it outside of Liberty". He was supposed to instruct you on the route you were supposed to take to leave liberty.
Instead, you activated your cruise engines without saying anything at all. Which got you shot.
RE: Liberty Navy [LN] - Thyrzul - 06-29-2018
Good evening, ladies and other organisms,
Recent events - incidents between Crayterian logistics and Liberty authorities - raised several questions in me, including, but not limited to the proper interpretation of Liberty Laws, either section by section, paragraph by paragraph, or the whole in one, the actual diplomatic standing of the Republic to other entities, and the priorities of law enforcement personnel. I also tried to discover the logic in the transpiring events and the reasons behind the decisions made, then tried to apply the same logic in the case of The Council, which confirmed our indirect relation to the events and justified my interest in a possible mutually beneficial resolution.
To me the incidents were explained as the result of a combination of Crayter Military IFF and the Republic of Liberty's policy regarding non-allied foreign militaries. I will discard the first factor because it's caused by ooRp limitations: the initially single CR IFF was split into two to represent the militaristic and civic aspects of the nation separately, yet the official CR faction, initially representing both aspects as well, are still not permitted to use both IFFs accordingly as per the faction creation and maintenance rules of the server. Instead I will focus on the second factor.
The relevant parts of the Liberty Laws regarding the Republic's policy towards any foreign non-hostile entity are Section Three Paragraphs I and II and Section Four Paragraph III. As of 2018-06-29 12:00 UTC (with the entire Liberty Laws post having been edited the last time on 2018-06-28) those paragraphs are written as the following:
It is interesting to note that while the Republic's policy regarding foreign warships is dynamic enough to allow anything as long as sufficient permission is given in exchange for sufficiently valid and plausible reasoning, the policy regarding foreign authorities and intellgence does not allow such. Instead it exempts allied nations from under the scope of the article, mentioning Bretonia as an example, but the context does not make it clear if it's the only example or one of many on a list, and if the latter, how long and how restricted that list is.
I've also been told the treatment CR received was justified because the CR is not strictly considered as an ally of Liberty, despite the forces of both republics fighting alongside to repel the GRN advance, which is the greatest threat to Liberty at this point. This then was later confirmed officially here. These circumstances brought me to my first question: Who exactly are the allies of the Republic of Liberty?
This question urged me to look for diplomatic sheets, but despite my efforts I've found none describing the relations of the Republic itself, only a treaty database. As I've been told numerous times in the past several years, the common practice regarding house governments is that decisions related to a house and its government itself are made by the leadership of the lawful official factions, based on this I tried to form a concept of Liberty diplomacy based on the diplomacy sheets of the official lawful factions (disregarding corporations here as supposedly not being relevant/competent enough regarding law enforcement in relation to Liberty's foreign policies). The diplomacy sheets of the four official lawful authority factions of Liberty as of today are the following:
Since the only foreign military and intelligence factions mentioned in the Liberty Laws being exempt from Section Four Paragraph III are the BAF and the BIS, I will have to compare those to Crayter and Council, where possible. The Liberty Navy's First Fleet's diplomacy sheet does make a difference between Bretonia and Crayter in that regard, giving BAF and BIS a score of +0.7 while Crayter Republic is only as good as +0.5 (Note the lack of differentiation between CR's Republic and Military IFF's... or maybe that's because their ID is still a single one). On the other hand if we consider that the Crayter ships participating in those incidents were logistics transports, that might justify comparing Crayter's standing with the relations of Bretonian Corporations - who conduct logistic operations for Bretonia -, which then shows us equal diplomatic scores in the case of all three Bretoniand factions and CR. The First Fleet's sheet does not mention Council. (Yet Kusari Exiles are still there.)
The Liberty Navy's Fifth Fleet's diplomacy sheet does not make such difference, considering both Bretonia and Crayter "friendly" only, contradicting the statement within the relevant article of Liberty Laws, as well as the differentiation in treatment. If we consider corporations, the Fifth fleet considers some of them as even less friendly than CR. Besides this, The Council on their sheet is also considered friendly.
The Liberty Security Force's diplomacy sheet seems to copy the sheet of the First Navy Fleet: considers Bretonian authorities more allied than the Crayter Republic or the Bretonian Corporations, does not mention The Council, but does mention the Kusari Exiles.
The Liberty Police Inc's diplomacy sheet is the most simplistic and indifferent of all: places Bretonian Corporation at +0.5 and does not mention foreign authorities or intelligence agencies at all, nor Council, leaving them belonging to the catch-all category at 0.0: "Everybody else not listed".
Well, the above wasn't really helpful in finding the answer to my question, but hopefully it's good and thorough enough to point out some perceived inconsistencies the factions forming the Liberty Forces might want to address and reconcile. And yet, my question still stands:
There was an other question I had thought of, also related to Section Four Paragraph III: What does constitute as a nation according to the Republic of Liberty? The paragraph mentions nations, but does not specify what the local law enforcement considers as such. This issue earned more significance when I tried to apply the logic - which I found behind how CR was treated - on the case of Council. What if Liberty considers The Council as allies, but not as a nation, are we not exempt from that law then? Will our own transports get the same treatment?
The official Crayter Republic faction, ever since I know them, has always been representing all aspects of the nation, representing people bound together not by profession but by nationality. They do have their subdivisions, corporations, military, logistics and intel running under the same banners. The Council has been doing the same, representing people by their gallic nationality (and anti-monarchist ideology), military, logistics and intel under the same banners. (And God forbid devs splitting our IFF too, so that admins can just say we suddenly overstretch ourselves instead of amending faction creation rules accordingly, I'd rather not suffer from intra-staff communicational and organizational issues, like how CR has to right now, but I digress...) It is difficult not to draw parallel between them and us, and thus it is difficult not to expect the same treatment, yet I'm still looking forward to either confirmation or denial, and in any case, an explaination.
I've used to do trade runs on my Council transport throughout Liberty and Bretonia as well as promoting this activity to other members of my faction. Back when I was doing that more actively, I was able to defend my position with the aid of the Liberty Laws during occasional instances of law enforcement misinterpreting their own laws they were meant to uphold. But the Liberty Laws seem to have changed since then. Can I still advise this activity for fellow Conseillards? Can we still count on those laws and their proper interpretation and enforcement? What am I to expect?
Tl;dr - Thank you for reading this whole page. Even more thanks if I receive any useful response.
PS: Yes, I know, people have been telling me Council is allowed to fly gallic transport ships within Liberty as per Section Three Paragraph I, but that is irrelevant, pretty much because of Section Four Paragraph III. You know, permission to fly a Vache doesn't help me much if I am not allowed to enter the house in the first place. Whether that's the case or not, however, depends on the answers to the above two questions.
Recent events - incidents between Crayterian logistics and Liberty authorities - raised several questions in me, including, but not limited to the proper interpretation of Liberty Laws, either section by section, paragraph by paragraph, or the whole in one, the actual diplomatic standing of the Republic to other entities, and the priorities of law enforcement personnel. I also tried to discover the logic in the transpiring events and the reasons behind the decisions made, then tried to apply the same logic in the case of The Council, which confirmed our indirect relation to the events and justified my interest in a possible mutually beneficial resolution.
To me the incidents were explained as the result of a combination of Crayter Military IFF and the Republic of Liberty's policy regarding non-allied foreign militaries. I will discard the first factor because it's caused by ooRp limitations: the initially single CR IFF was split into two to represent the militaristic and civic aspects of the nation separately, yet the official CR faction, initially representing both aspects as well, are still not permitted to use both IFFs accordingly as per the faction creation and maintenance rules of the server. Instead I will focus on the second factor.
The relevant parts of the Liberty Laws regarding the Republic's policy towards any foreign non-hostile entity are Section Three Paragraphs I and II and Section Four Paragraph III. As of 2018-06-29 12:00 UTC (with the entire Liberty Laws post having been edited the last time on 2018-06-28) those paragraphs are written as the following:
![[+]](/forums/images/collapse_collapsed.png "[+]")
Section Three Paragraph IIt is interesting to note that while the Republic's policy regarding foreign warships is dynamic enough to allow anything as long as sufficient permission is given in exchange for sufficiently valid and plausible reasoning, the policy regarding foreign authorities and intellgence does not allow such. Instead it exempts allied nations from under the scope of the article, mentioning Bretonia as an example, but the context does not make it clear if it's the only example or one of many on a list, and if the latter, how long and how restricted that list is.
I've also been told the treatment CR received was justified because the CR is not strictly considered as an ally of Liberty, despite the forces of both republics fighting alongside to repel the GRN advance, which is the greatest threat to Liberty at this point. This then was later confirmed officially here. These circumstances brought me to my first question: Who exactly are the allies of the Republic of Liberty?
This question urged me to look for diplomatic sheets, but despite my efforts I've found none describing the relations of the Republic itself, only a treaty database. As I've been told numerous times in the past several years, the common practice regarding house governments is that decisions related to a house and its government itself are made by the leadership of the lawful official factions, based on this I tried to form a concept of Liberty diplomacy based on the diplomacy sheets of the official lawful factions (disregarding corporations here as supposedly not being relevant/competent enough regarding law enforcement in relation to Liberty's foreign policies). The diplomacy sheets of the four official lawful authority factions of Liberty as of today are the following:
Since the only foreign military and intelligence factions mentioned in the Liberty Laws being exempt from Section Four Paragraph III are the BAF and the BIS, I will have to compare those to Crayter and Council, where possible. The Liberty Navy's First Fleet's diplomacy sheet does make a difference between Bretonia and Crayter in that regard, giving BAF and BIS a score of +0.7 while Crayter Republic is only as good as +0.5 (Note the lack of differentiation between CR's Republic and Military IFF's... or maybe that's because their ID is still a single one). On the other hand if we consider that the Crayter ships participating in those incidents were logistics transports, that might justify comparing Crayter's standing with the relations of Bretonian Corporations - who conduct logistic operations for Bretonia -, which then shows us equal diplomatic scores in the case of all three Bretoniand factions and CR. The First Fleet's sheet does not mention Council. (Yet Kusari Exiles are still there.)
The Liberty Navy's Fifth Fleet's diplomacy sheet does not make such difference, considering both Bretonia and Crayter "friendly" only, contradicting the statement within the relevant article of Liberty Laws, as well as the differentiation in treatment. If we consider corporations, the Fifth fleet considers some of them as even less friendly than CR. Besides this, The Council on their sheet is also considered friendly.
The Liberty Security Force's diplomacy sheet seems to copy the sheet of the First Navy Fleet: considers Bretonian authorities more allied than the Crayter Republic or the Bretonian Corporations, does not mention The Council, but does mention the Kusari Exiles.
The Liberty Police Inc's diplomacy sheet is the most simplistic and indifferent of all: places Bretonian Corporation at +0.5 and does not mention foreign authorities or intelligence agencies at all, nor Council, leaving them belonging to the catch-all category at 0.0: "Everybody else not listed".
Well, the above wasn't really helpful in finding the answer to my question, but hopefully it's good and thorough enough to point out some perceived inconsistencies the factions forming the Liberty Forces might want to address and reconcile. And yet, my question still stands:
Who exactly are the allies of the Republic of Liberty?
There was an other question I had thought of, also related to Section Four Paragraph III: What does constitute as a nation according to the Republic of Liberty? The paragraph mentions nations, but does not specify what the local law enforcement considers as such. This issue earned more significance when I tried to apply the logic - which I found behind how CR was treated - on the case of Council. What if Liberty considers The Council as allies, but not as a nation, are we not exempt from that law then? Will our own transports get the same treatment?
The official Crayter Republic faction, ever since I know them, has always been representing all aspects of the nation, representing people bound together not by profession but by nationality. They do have their subdivisions, corporations, military, logistics and intel running under the same banners. The Council has been doing the same, representing people by their gallic nationality (and anti-monarchist ideology), military, logistics and intel under the same banners. (And God forbid devs splitting our IFF too, so that admins can just say we suddenly overstretch ourselves instead of amending faction creation rules accordingly, I'd rather not suffer from intra-staff communicational and organizational issues, like how CR has to right now, but I digress...) It is difficult not to draw parallel between them and us, and thus it is difficult not to expect the same treatment, yet I'm still looking forward to either confirmation or denial, and in any case, an explaination.
What does constitute as a nation according to the Republic of Liberty?
I've used to do trade runs on my Council transport throughout Liberty and Bretonia as well as promoting this activity to other members of my faction. Back when I was doing that more actively, I was able to defend my position with the aid of the Liberty Laws during occasional instances of law enforcement misinterpreting their own laws they were meant to uphold. But the Liberty Laws seem to have changed since then. Can I still advise this activity for fellow Conseillards? Can we still count on those laws and their proper interpretation and enforcement? What am I to expect?
Tl;dr - Thank you for reading this whole page. Even more thanks if I receive any useful response.
PS: Yes, I know, people have been telling me Council is allowed to fly gallic transport ships within Liberty as per Section Three Paragraph I, but that is irrelevant, pretty much because of Section Four Paragraph III. You know, permission to fly a Vache doesn't help me much if I am not allowed to enter the house in the first place. Whether that's the case or not, however, depends on the answers to the above two questions.
RE: Liberty Navy [LN] - Shiki - 06-29-2018
There was an event of CR trying to blockade Cortez.
Then CR again tried to declare their own martial law all over Cortez, which was also foiled.
It is clear why CR and Liberty are not exactly allies.
RE: Liberty Navy [LN] - TheShooter36 - 06-30-2018
We did not blockade Cortez in an event. Even if we would do, it would be beneficial to Liberty. The whole "annexing Cortez" is a wording error.
Are you even libgov shiki?
It looks like to me that you and several others just want to shoot CR or cease the fun of CR by complaining about how we join events and then applying oorp fueled "laws" and making issues out of them. Discovery isnt the playground of Liberty alone.
RE: Liberty Navy [LN] - SnakThree - 06-30-2018
@Thyrzul,
We have not changed anything on foreign military/intelligence in the last year or so.
~ LibGov rep which submits requests for law changes
RE: Liberty Navy [LN] - NoMe - 06-30-2018
it's a pleasure to see a person who is not ok! mister laflamme No?
RE: Liberty Navy [LN] - Franz Oberhauser - 06-30-2018
@SnakThree i know of that. However CR transports have Military IFF since the IFF split of CR happened (which i never supported) and no one bat an eye for 2 years, yet suddenly everyone losing their minds since last week. We are pretty much use the Military IFF because of rules and now we are getting squashed by both rules, players and RP. I hope you understand our situation.
oops wrong acc...