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+---- Thread: Can we please change the snub changes back? (/showthread.php?tid=147221)
RE: Can we please change the snub changes back? - nOmnomnOm - 03-01-2017
Revert to 4.84 snub pvp
RE: Can we please change the snub changes back? - Durandal - 03-01-2017
There's all something you seem to be missing despite your pleas for missiles to be readded to the game, and that is the fact that they replaced a regular gun.
The addition of the aux slot is actually a huge problem in this regard, as you would now have no real drawback from additional, consistent, DPS. And missiles are, for better or worse, consistent DPS in their current form.
I'm not adverse to readding them with an ammo count of ten or maybe even twenty but that isn't going to be enough for you people, so it feels like, "man, why even bother?"
It also doesn't help that the balance team is frankly in shambles at the moment, and even though that's not exactly something I should be talking about publicly it really pisses me off when I can't get an intelligent discussion going in there without people tearing each other's heads off.
There are some more strawman arguments here too. For example, those "idiots at Digital Anvil" did not intend for Freelancer to be a competitive multiplayer game. (see; houses having different tiers of tech, nomad energy blasters that had no power drain, etc). You can't possibly begin to even try and use an inherently unbalanced game as a basis for an argument on balanced missiles.
The other is vets hitting consistently enough with a razor to mount one instead of mounting missiles? Hell, god, no. Absolutely not. Remember Starkillers? Those things that tracked worse than missiles? Yeah, every man and his dog was using one.
Now give him something that tracks better and deals ~3.5k damage every shot. Now give him twenty of those. That's 70000k damage total. Divide that by 17400, the damage of a single razor, and you get four shots. I know for a fact from the numerous battles I've participated in, that it simply doesn't happen. Not in a chase. In duels, sure, the razor is excellent. That's where it shines and most people who die to it do from a full salvo of 2.00s, ye olde shotgun loadout.
But in a chase, you're always going to get more DPS out of a missile unless your target is bad enough to literally drift in a straight line, in which case no amount of balance is going to save you and you can just be killed by good old fashioned guns anyway.
On average, I'd say myself and most other people who are decent with a razor could land maybe two hits in a chase consistently against someone who is actually dodging. If you do that math for that, it comes out to 10 tracking missiles at 3.5k damage each.
Now look me in the eye and tell me you'd be satisfied with that, which is the closest 'leveling of the playing field' I can theoretically bring you with tracking weapons that don't lock.
Edit: Alright, I forgot to factor in CMs here. Let's also assume an average of one third of your missiles being thrown off by them. It's really, really tricky to judge how accurate that is and @Haste has done more testing in that regard but I think it's the closest number I can pull out of my ass.
So we're losing one third of our 3.5k damage missiles that we want to have deal razor tier damage over the course of a fight. So we have ten missiles. One third of 10 is 3.3, which of course rounds down to 3. So whoop dee doo, you've got a whopping thirteen missiles. I'm pretty sure my argument still stands.
RE: Can we please change the snub changes back? - Pepe - 03-01-2017
(03-01-2017, 01:27 PM)Jack_Henderson Wrote: an equaliser
Simply let go any idea of equaling a noob with an ace. They might be equal only after both spend the same time in Conn. Respect to the skill. Loadout is just a mere tool.
Main noob issue is that aces don't fly with them. Aces fly with other aces, as they know each other and they can count on a wingman dude for help and cover. They are friends bounded by TS for even more effectiveness. They know how to get max from this game, so why would they throw it away and enjoy less? Would I? Would you?
Times when Yber and Tachy would fly on one side and Chris and Meph on other, are gone. You can't resurrect them back by changing snubs back and forward.
Best snub changes are ones that can be abused less.
RE: Can we please change the snub changes back? - Foxglove - 03-01-2017
Durandal Wrote:The addition of the aux slot is actually a huge problem in this regard, as you would now have no real drawback from additional, consistent, DPS. And missiles are, for better or worse, consistent DPS in their current form.
Is there maybe a way to give Heavy and Light Fighters dedicated Aux slots to mount tracking missiles on? This would give them a real reason to become viable again, and might also warrant going up with the ammo count to 50 again. You are still susceptible to CDs, and have less ammo, so you have a decent drawback to it as well.
RE: Can we please change the snub changes back? - Durandal - 03-01-2017
(03-01-2017, 08:45 PM)Foxglove Wrote:Durandal Wrote:The addition of the aux slot is actually a huge problem in this regard, as you would now have no real drawback from additional, consistent, DPS. And missiles are, for better or worse, consistent DPS in their current form.
Is there maybe a way to give Heavy and Light Fighters dedicated Aux slots to mount tracking missiles on? This would give them a real reason to become viable again, and might also warrant going up with the ammo count to 50 again. You are still susceptible to CDs, and have less ammo, so you have a decent drawback to it as well.
I feel like you really didn't think this post through. This solves none of the problems I outlined in the post you quoted, and puts heavier weapons on a ship that is harder (in most cases) to hit.
LFs and HFs definitely need to be reworked, but giving them heavier weapons in their current state isn't the way to go about it.
Now if they were losing a gun to compensate for the addition of a missile, without having an aux slot? As in, putting HFs into more of an omni-mech role a la Battletech? I think that would be pretty interesting, since it's a lot easier to justify trading consistent DPS for consistent DPS (gun for missile) than inconsistent DPS for consistent DPS (razor or maxim for missile).
RE: Can we please change the snub changes back? - Vendetta - 03-01-2017
I don't miss the days of full missile VHFs.
I don't miss the days of Starkillers on every VHF that still had full gun damage output.
I still think the addition of aux slots made the other fighter classes irrelevant and redundant, but eventually we adapt and move on.
Do we need more missiles? No. They didn't bridge a skill gap because the majority of the time missiles didn't land. Is there a skill gap? Yes, but you can't balance the game to make it easier for people to bridge it, because if you make one thing good at killing something, other players - including people competent at pvp - would use it, and you'd be back to square one.
No, going back to Eagles with Nomad guns will not fix the problem because that removes diversity from a mod that's supposed to excel at being diverse and make the entirety of existing ships viable for people to fly, not just one.
LFs and HFs do need to be reworked. I've already provided my suggestions for them, and I still fly an LF despite knowing I'm horribly outmatched by anyone in a VHF because they can simply drop a Nuke mine and I'm out of the fight that quickly. I still fly my Bayonet because it's a fun little ship, but I'm still well aware that I'm outmatched by a class with better shields, equal firepower and the ability to mount a unique set of weapons that makes flying utility ships useless. (rip Loki)
The changes don't need to be reverted.
RE: Can we please change the snub changes back? - Emperor Tekagi - 03-01-2017
All in all it's a question about how the re-balancing for LFs and HFs will look like, yet the point stays that the current auxiliary weapons don't really give newbies anything, especially those without possibility to train hours in conn.
What makes me wonder, are there maybe a few new, as in completly new concepts of aux guns in planning?
RE: Can we please change the snub changes back? - Vendetta - 03-01-2017
(03-01-2017, 09:04 PM)Werdackel| Wrote: All in all it's a question about how the re-balancing for LFs and HFs will look like, yet the point stays that the current auxiliary weapons don't really give newbies anything, especially those without possibility to train hours in conn.
What makes me wonder, are there maybe a few new, as in completly new concepts of aux guns in planning?
@Haste did mention upcoming changes to aux guns and additions of more, so I'd imagine that the Maxim and Razor aren't just the two people will be using.
RE: Can we please change the snub changes back? - Altejago - 03-01-2017
(03-01-2017, 08:25 PM)nOmnomnOm Wrote: Revert to 4.84 snub pvp
You weren't even here in 84
RE: Can we please change the snub changes back? - Emperor Tekagi - 03-01-2017
(03-01-2017, 09:06 PM)Vendetta Wrote:(03-01-2017, 09:04 PM)Werdackel| Wrote: All in all it's a question about how the re-balancing for LFs and HFs will look like, yet the point stays that the current auxiliary weapons don't really give newbies anything, especially those without possibility to train hours in conn.
What makes me wonder, are there maybe a few new, as in completly new concepts of aux guns in planning?
@Haste did mention upcoming changes to aux guns and additions of more, so I'd imagine that the Maxim and Razor aren't just the two people will be using.
Yeah but I was wondering again what exactly they will be and if they could already share some details with us.