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+---- Thread: Greyhound...again (/showthread.php?tid=29002)
Greyhound...again - MarvinCZ - 11-21-2009
There is something wrong indeed, when a faction doesn't try one of its ships, because they are fed how it sucks. Let those who did try it come and share their opinion. Not the "We know it sucks because everyone says so," please.
And the nonsense I meant was your statement about the Werewolf. You spout nonsense and when someone disagrees you treat it like spam? Bleh.
And who am I? I'm the developer who went and tried the Greyhound out. One of the few people in this thread who did, I think.
Greyhound...again - schlurbi - 11-21-2009
My recent Recruits have been flying the Greyhound, for quite some time. But then I should mention they all changed their Ships into a Bactrian.
Greyhound...again - pipsqueak - 11-21-2009
Well I personally think we are getting too much preoccupied with stats and meta gaming.
I understand the game should be balanced but... we also have to make sure that there is diversity amongst ships. When I see Rogue ships, I expect big...blazingly fast with huge power plants. why ? because their main forte' is pirating and they can't bring caps to pirate frieghters. I expect the admins to realize that and make sure that the Rogue ships have a little advantage against bigger vessels (like dreaddys).
Unfortunately if a fight gets to that point.... (aka cap party starts) and 3 or 4 caps show up agaisnt 3 or 4 pirates. If you are flying a greyhound, you are up the sheitcreek without a paddle. All you can do is to watch your friends die. Now there could be solutions to this problem.....and here are my few different scenarios....
1. If any one read what I wrote about a bomber missile....(yeah yeah I have a wild imagination), We could give greyhound one of the bomber class 6 slots so it can mount that weapon. Slow speed so fighters are safe and it can still hurt bigger ships.
or...
2. Give it a torp and a CD.. why? because why would a Rogue designer create an interceptor what can either hurt some one or stop em. and not both. Specially considering there is ehough roop on the ships to replace the turret to this weapon.
or...
3. Give it two miner droppers....so it can spam mines and hurt the big boys....
Frankly one of the Rogue ships need to be turned into an interceptor.....take your pick... its either Hyena or the Grehound (P.S. off the topic a little, I hope some day its image gets updated so it looks even more in line with the other ships).
Remember, The idea is not to create overpowered ship which the community starts gravitating towards... the idea is to create diversity while keeping ships competent against each other. Also on another note, I dont care what the info card says about the fighter. If it says the fighter is a HF and it flys like a VHF, it is a VHF.
PEACE.
P.S. Schlurbi....amazing GIF....on your avi. That hip action is hypnotic..... :P
Greyhound...again - mjolnir - 11-21-2009
' Wrote:Needs a turret in the same place as the Werewolf.
It has a forward firing turret right there.
Shows how much you knew about it?
Greyhound...again - tansytansey - 11-22-2009
' Wrote:It has a forward firing turret right there.I'm fairly sure Akura was just doing a +1. I don't even think he has a Rogue... I'd appreciate it if you posted more constructively in this thread Mjolnir, we're asking you to help us yet you seem to be ignoring us entirely. Is that what the dev team does when someone is persistent in asking for change? Simply ignore them and hope they shut up?
Shows how much you knew about it?
' Wrote:There is something wrong indeed, when a faction doesn't try one of its ships, because they are fed how it sucks. Let those who did try it come and share their opinion. Not the "We know it sucks because everyone says so," please.You're being extremely pedantic. Once again, if you got nothing to add to this thread then shut the hell up. So far you've posted nothing constructive in the past few pages. If you've got a valid point for me to respond to, then sure, but right now you're effectively saying "NO U"
And the nonsense I meant was your statement about the Werewolf. You spout nonsense and when someone disagrees you treat it like spam? Bleh.
Quote:And who am I? I'm the developer who went and tried the Greyhound out. One of the few people in this thread who did, I think.I'm appalled at your behavior if you really are a dev team member. We're asking for help and you're spitting back at us. Stop acting so high and mighty, you're not God, you're just a dev team member.
And are you also someone who flies the Greyhound every day? Do you have over 70 hours flight time on your Greyhound? Have you killed everything from Liberators to Gunboats to Bounty Hunter Destroyers in your Greyhound? I'll admit I haven't had a chance to fly the update 2 Greyhound, but only due to technical issues. I have no regular internet and my computer isn't working right now. But I have flown a Greyhound with a turret (surprise, that was my original plan when I designed the new model), I have also flown a Greyhound with Sammaels for long enough to know how incapable they are of puncturing a transport shield, of how energy draining they are. I've also pirate in an Eagle enough to know that x4 hull busters and x2 shield busters can barely kill transports, let alone x4 hull busters and x1 shield buster. You might say "but the Greyhound isn't designed to kill transports." But I say to you, what use is the Greyhound if it cannot? The Liberty Rogues exist to pirate, and a ship which is incapable of doing so is useless to us. This I also know, because I have also flown with a mini razor for quite some time on my Greyhound. So don't use the Greyhound then, you say? But the Greyhound is a Liberty Rogue icon. Why should the balance of a ship tell us what it can and can't do? In the past we had the choice whether we wanted it to be a combat ship or a piracy ship, now it's pre-defined for us.
And if you wanted us to use the Greyhound for combat rather than piracy, then you could at least give it stats comparable to the ship we fight the most, which is of course the Guardian. You can say you can't compare a Hf to a VHF all you want, but when it comes down to it, no one flies the Executioner. The Greyhound has always been a hybrid of HF and VHF in the past, and if you compare the difference between the old Greyhound and the Guardian, and the new Greyhound and the Guardian;
Armour 9,800;11,000
Guns 4/0;5/1
Power 12,4000;11,400
B/B 63/63;68/68
Shield 10/10
Armour 8,200;11,000
Guns 4/1;5/1
Power 10,400;11,400
B/B 63/63;68/68
Shield 9/10
Would you be so kind as to post a comparison of the old Greyhound's turning and new Greyhound's turning in comparison with the Guardian now, Mjolnir?
Greyhound...again - mjolnir - 11-22-2009
' Wrote:I'm fairly sure Akura was just doing a +1. I don't even think he has a Rogue... I'd appreciate it if you posted more constructively in this thread Mjolnir, we're asking you to help us yet you seem to be ignoring us entirely. Is that what the dev team does when someone is persistent in asking for change? Simply ignore them and hope they shut up?
I was using dear Akura to illustrate the point. 90% of the people talking about Greyhound in this thread never flew it after update 2 (or flew it just two turns around the base in Open SP), yet they "know" it sucks.
On the other hand dev team bought (on their own money as always) and used Greyhound and Werewolf to get first hand experience, yet they are told that "it doesn't count cause you don't represent normal players".
Off course this was after the conclusion in previous thread was that Greyhound should get more turning and more guns, while it shouldn't be as hard to kill as in 4.84. Now that it got it, the same people that proposed it argue that it's all wrong.
' Wrote:I'll admit I haven't had a chance to fly the update 2 Greyhound, but only due to technical issues.
Thanks for admitting, guess we'll talk when you actually fly it. Problem is that now that you "know" it sucks your opinion of it will be highly affected.
See this thread for other funny examples "the power of rumor": http://discoverygc.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=33522
(best one was 90% of Corsairs claiming how Titan suddenly turned much faster in 4.85 when in fact it wasn't changed at all.)
' Wrote:You might say "but the Greyhound isn't designed to kill transports." But I say to you, what use is the Greyhound if it cannot? The Liberty Rogues exist to pirate, and a ship which is incapable of doing so is useless to us. This I also know, because I have also flown with a mini razor for quite some time on my Greyhound. So don't use the Greyhound then, you say? But the Greyhound is a Liberty Rogue icon. Why should the balance of a ship tell us what it can and can't do? In the past we had the choice whether we wanted it to be a combat ship or a piracy ship, now it's pre-defined for us.
Liberty Rogues have 2 ships that are best at pirating in their class (by far): Werewolf and Barghest. Arguably they are also worst at fighting fighters in groups in their class, which is what Greyhounds are for.
4.84 Homeworld-import Greyhound was a Liberty Rogue icon yes, cause all Rogues flew that one because of explosive invulnerability and bad stats of the Werewolf.
Yes ship uses are pre-defined in Discovery. Balance of each ship tells you what it can or can't do, in some ships are rather universal, meaning that they are relatively good in some areas, while others are better in one area but worse in others to compensate. While sometimes not numerous as the universal ships, these special ships allow experienced pilots to do otherwise impossible things as long as they can compensate for the weaknesses of their ships, same could actually apply to guns.
Barghest, BHG GS, Liberty Cruiser, BHG Destroyer are the ships that come to my mind. Black Widows, Daitos, Sammaels, 2.00 Codenames or even say GB Razors are gun examples.
' Wrote:. The Greyhound has always been a hybrid of HF and VHF in the past, and if you compare the difference between the<strike> old Greyhound and the Guardian</strike>, and the new Greyhound and the Guardian;
<strike>Armour 9,800;11,000
Guns 4/0;5/1
Power 12,4000;11,400
B/B 63/63;68/68
Shield 10/10</strike>
Armour 8,200;11,000
Guns 4/1;5/1
Power 10,400;11,400
B/B 63/63;68/68
Shield 9/10
Greyhound vs Guardian size comparison is:
Width: Greyhound half the size of Guardian
Height: same
Length: Greyhound about 50% longer
Turning is like this:
Mass 3x Steering Torgue, 3x angular Drag, 3x ST/AG ratio (turning speed in different axes, higher=better), 3x Rotation inertian, 3x ST/RI ratio (response to imput, higher=better)
Old Greyhound: 150 45000 45000 70000 38000 38000 60000 1.1842 1.1842 1.1667 5000 5000 9000 9.00 9.00 7.78
New Greyhound: 150 51000 51000 51000 41000 41000 41000 1.2439 1.2439 1.2439 8000 8000 8000 6.38 6.38 6.38
Guardian: 150 47000 47000 190000 40000 40000 141000 1.1750 1.1750 1.3475 8400 8400 8400 5.60 5.60 22.62
X and Y are easy to understand, Z axis ST/AG ratio tells how fast the ship will react to the change in turning direction from one side to another (cause all FL ships first roll and then turn), similarly for ST/RI ratio. So generally it's the "dodging" ability of the ship.
Greyhound...again - schlurbi - 11-22-2009
You know, you can for once forget any stats. I mean, if my Rogues are unhappy with it, then something IS wrong with it. Not only Recruits did fly it, (They changed into Bactrians, one even into a Hyena) also Andre did fly it. Also Shelest, they are all saying that it is bad.
I dont get any stats into my head. I just know it flies good or crap.
Quote:Those quotes are from people who have used and still use the Ship.Quote:Finally figured out a name fer the ships. Look fer the "Lapsed Pacifist". The red paint looks pretty damn good.
O' course, It took a lil' ta' find the ship that fit me. Finly' settled ta' the Bactrian (thank God...that 'Grey was a nightmare).Quote:I can't even win fights with a Greyhound, so flying a Wolfhound's a lost cause.Quote:Greyhound is oversized and underpowered, I wouldn't recommend it.
From its heart the Greyhound was a Rogue Ship. Designed and built on Montezuma and you tweak it for fights against a Bretonian Fighter which is the heaviest.
Greyhound...again - mjolnir - 11-22-2009
' Wrote:You know, you can for once forget any stats. I mean, if my Rogues are unhappy with it, then something IS wrong with it.
Sure, so if Outcasts are unhappy with Sabre (" it runs out of power so fast") then we buff Sabre? etc etc.
Quote: Not only Recruits did fly it, (They changed into Bactrians, one even into a Hyena) also Andre did fly it. Also Shelest, they are all saying that it is bad.
Bactarian is much better at pirating yes, it looks like that's what your recruits do. Greyhound isn't and never will be a good ship for flying alone in.
Greyhound...again - schlurbi - 11-22-2009
Where did I say that they use it for Piracy? They also say that fighting in the Bactrian is much better than with the silly Greyhound right now. Just ask them. They dont like it for Piracy, Fighting and being teamed up with at least one or two other Rogues. And tell me, how come that even the Hyena is better than the Greyhound.
Sure, because everyone moans about the Sabre...and no one flies it aswell. The Bloodhound is actually better than the Greyhound. With fighting and Piracy.
You just dont get that any who is playing a Rogue regulary is against the current Greyhound.
Greyhound...again - MarvinCZ - 11-22-2009
The Bactrian is a heavy hulk with a lot of steady firepower that can soak up some damage and survive a few piloting errors.
Hyena is able to stay out of harm's way better than the Greyhound, while not so easy as other ships. Your hull will fail if you really screw up, but it's not that likely as in the Greyhound. Just staying alive is relatively easy, you can get to dealing significant damage with practice.
Greyhound, on the other hand needs decent piloting to survive, its hull won't forgive many piloting errors while its handling doesn't make it overly easy to avoid fire. It's not bad, but you'll have to work for it. At the same time you have much higher ability to deal damage than the Hyena.
My conclusion, similar to Mjolnir's: It's not worse than the others, but you'll have to work more. With the same hard work you'll get similar results, but without it you're more likely to fail in the Greyhound.
Btw, I'll ask Andre to post some through assesment himself.