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+--- Thread: Techmix-nerf and factions which are unique in RELYING on techmixing (/showthread.php?tid=70170)
Techmix-nerf and factions which are unique in RELYING on techmixing - Maelstrom - 12-17-2011
Yeah, not having all the cool gizmos and gadgets that OFFICIAL factions have is why there aren't that many indi and freelancer pilots. Wait....what? Most people aren't playing a faction because of how good or bad thier equipment is. They choose a role and find the best mix within that role, not choose the equipment and slap a spam role on it. Your arguement is just reinforcing our point that you are pvp based and not rp. Disco is, first and foremost, a rp comunity.
The reason people don't play certain roles is simple. They don't like the role. This is something I've been saying for a long time now. Don't choose a faction for it's pvp ability and then try to change it to the role you really want to play. There is nothing wrong with attempting to upgrade a factions ship line, there is something horribly wrong with changing the faction to fit the ship line you want.
Techmix-nerf and factions which are unique in RELYING on techmixing - Jinx - 12-17-2011
to lead it back to the roleplay:
characteristics about your own gear:
- you have ppl that know in and out how to maintain it. even when teams change - new ppl know it well enough, too.
- you have spare parts - more spare parts than for any other tech
- you cannot even maintain it - but also keep it up to date.... so that an older model can compete with the new situation
- your own gear is "iconic" - but not in a way like "old gear" - its the difference between "the axe of your ancenstors vs. an excellently balanced vibro-sword"
characteristics about foreign gear:
- only a limited number of people know how to maintain it - and even if they are as good as the original ppl, they will have to make compromises.
- compromises include the use of "non standard spare parts" - which .... a tinkerer can circumvent easily.
- but after a while ( years ) - such a custom ship becomes more and more complicated - until its really only a handful of mechanics that can maintain it anymore - and your spare parts also become more and more odd.
- lets assume you have a perfect team of mechanics - they might even make your ship MORE powerful. - at least at the start. - but after a while ( and ships appear to be handed down generations sometimes ) - they become worse - they are not up to date anymore. - they can "still compete" - but thats "just sufficient enough"
- such gear has "idealistic value" - they are icons of your origins. - a modern mercenary group that can trace its origin back to the vikings might still keep "the old axe of the chief" as an icon - but would be ill advised to take it into battle.
treat the legacies of your factions just as that - a legacy. they are NOT useless - but they show wear and tear more and more. - a character CAN roleplay - stealing / purchasing perfect spare parts - and training his mechanics 100%. - but then ..... a character can also RP to be a superhero that can tear the molecules of his enemies apart by sheer will of thought.
from my point of view - it makes "100%" perfect sense in RP to have non-faction-equipment be worse. - and it also makes 100% sense that old ships that defected or were stolen - are impossible to maintain. ( the term "impossible" is the COMPROMISE here.... as the term improbable or unlikely would create an unequal playing field )
Techmix-nerf and factions which are unique in RELYING on techmixing - Blighter - 12-17-2011
' Wrote:You don't NEED a light battleship. Lots of factions don't have one. HF has the spyglass, that's already far more than most factions have. If you WANT another you can take the hit, just like everybody else. That is the very essence of fair.
The whole point of the new system is to make it so that people CAN'T continue to function as before. Now tech-mixing is truely going to be about the rp, not the pvp. If you want to roleplay a HF in a rogue destroyer you still can, you just aren't going to kick seven kinds of tail with your tech-mix doing it.
This system even makes more sense than the previous system. It used to be, "You can't use this cuz we said so, nyah." Now it's, "You can use this but it has a different set of system specs and doesn't mesh well with your current systems software and hardware." At least that is a plausible roleplay reason.
You do realize that if people can't continue to function as before, they'll have to find ways to function and invest work and time and effort into that again just because of some random change? And you do realize that for some factions this may not end up discouraging them to mix at all, but to compensate for nerf-induced drawbacks by numbers? Nerf the HF's fleet and it has to potentially double in size to function properly, this means: More people, more coordination, more work, MORE CAPS, and frankly I don't see why the faction should have to do that when it would be content if its current junk stayed as it was rather than having to resort to full-scale capspam.
Oh, and you know what, you try RPing a Military force that fights against the Liberty Navy on a daily basis without a functioning fleet to back up the pvp-part of your RP, then you can tell me that the HF doesn't need the junk it has, but I'll just say that one kind of Battleship is no suitable replacement for three different kinds of Battleship, nor is it a suitable replacement for a Battlecruiser, one kind of Cruiser and two kinds of Destroyers. This system's looking like it'll by the nerf prevent us from utilizing anything other than brute-force and mass-numbers tactics, and for example in the SCRA's case prevents them from having working heavy-hitters to back up their Destroyer force. I'm sure that's pretty nice, in an environment like we're having here.
' Wrote:Taking into account how much the current balance favours combined fleet tactics (to the point where a good composition combined fleet can defeat opponents far more skilled than them in equal numbers - by simple virtue of counters) denying the HF - a faction whose primary (and arguably only) goal is to fight with the LN (unlike the pirate factions who don't have capital access, those can also pirate, smuggle, etc.) seems like denying them the means to conduct their battles and roleplay effectively.
But okay, let's say HF for example doesn't need any of it. Let's just toss out all the history and age and all the RP and all that other crap out of the window, then I'm myself looking at how to set-up a raiding force against say 3x LDs, 2x LABCs and 2x LSCs.
Nowadays I'd look and say: Alright, we'll take the Venny (Ranseur), the Libertine (Spyglass), Damo and Excal (Siege Cruisers WHICH WE CAN NOT AND DO NO WANT TO MIX-TECH ON, THEY'RE PURE LIBERTY TECH, NOT MIXED), and three Bombers.
That's 2x BS, 2x Cruiser, 3x Bomber, 7 ships, vs:
3x BS, 2x BC, 2x Cruiser, another 7 ships which have way more raw firepower to boot.
Or I could try to do it with two Gunboats, the Incursus, the Venny and the Last Sunrise along with the Abaddon as backup. Or I could go Incy, Venny, Libertine, Damocles and Excal. Or Damo, Excal, Iblis, Abbey, Sunrise and two Gbs. Or or or.
From then on, I'd see about utilizing TACTICS to isolate some enemies and then torch them, and then I'd see about getting a real big fight going. This is what you do in Discovery PvP 24/7 if you are facing otherwise superior opposition, you use your brain.
In .86 with that nerf, I will look at 90% of the fleet being nerfed and less effective, in other words I can simply have those ships get scrapped and them being tossed in the trash. So I have to get more ships of the types I can use, which are Spyglasses and the new Gunboat. In the same scenario, this is what I'd do against 3x LDs, 2x LABCs and 2x LSCs.
Get four Spyglasses and three Bombers on. Bombers alone will take too long a time to kill that fleet. So will Gunboats.
I don't have forces to mix-match and I've nothing I can really experiment with. So I have to do what I can do, and that is brute-force everything.
No tactics involved, no major thinking involved, I lack a flexible fleet, I only have GBs with a limited damage output at my disposal, and it takes too long for GBs to destroy Battleships, of which I'm facing three. So I've no other sensible option left. I can play the game of "isolate, then kill", but why should I? Why should I adhere to the RP of the HF being few in number with a small rag-tag fleet, when said fleet's gone down the drain for the most part, and when I can get the same result I'd get with utilizing fancy tactics by just utilizing raw force? My flexibility is non-existent compared to what was previously there, and now I have to take advantage of what I have which is NOT nerfed. And that part is infinite Spyglasses.
Okay, but not really. My tactical option's limited to brute-forcing everything with large amounts of Battleships, rather than utilizing a relatively small selection of highly-specialized ships as it best suits their role. That's boring. That's also lame. And it ain't fun. Challenge is what makes the PvP fun. Challenge isn't bred out of monotony, it is bred out of diversity. Be it the Corsair Mamorus a Hessian suddenly, unexpectedly encounters on the battlefield or the sudden third Lib Dread that shows up after you had one Cruiser and a Battleship already sink two while your half-Solaris BS is now dry on BB and all that. That's fun.
Being limited to only one really viable option where you previously had multiple different ones available isn't fun. It gets old very fast. It breaks the HF's core game-play aspect in more ways than one, versatility is one of those ways. It makes doing our job (our job inRP being to wage a WAR), boring. Stale. Same old over and over.
' Wrote:quality > quantity
The above is what I personally prefer too, but when I've no quality, I have to resort to quantity.
As for EVERYONE who keeps stressing this "Disco is a RP server thing":
Quote:Can engage and destroy any lawful Liberty ships at will, excluding ships belonging to Liberty Corporations, Independent Traders and Civilians,
Cannot ally with any lawful pilots, factions or organizations,
Can demand contraband from lawful and unlawful traders and smugglers and destroy ships if they refuse to comply in a gunboat or smaller ([[cruisers and battleships may only demand allied pilots)
Cannot trade, but can escort Independent Traders, Civilians and ships of Liberty Corporations
Cruisers and Battleships cannot leave Liberty space and the bordering Independent Worlds,
Cannot use any Transport that has more than 3,600 cargo.
Allowed ships: Fighters, Freighters, Gunboats, Cruisers, Battleships, and Transports.
Our RP >IS< PvP. Our RP >IS< to shoot things. Our RP >IS< to generate blue messages.
Our RP IS NOT to Pirate. Our RP IS NOT to trade. Our RP IS NOT to mine.
Our RP >IS< to SHOOT. Then shoot more. Shoot so much that our guns melt and you can see the glow of our barrels on the horizon.
We play this role, because we like it. And now I will say one more thing for the HF: As this has been the CORE of our RP for years, we ultimately HAD TO change our way of working and functioning in THIS AREA around whatever ships we do actually HAVE so we could do our RP which is SHOOTING as effective as possible. Now that we've most of our stuff sorted and are looking towards expanding, towards branching out, towards the other fun stuff you can do so we can be less shooting-heavy, our shooting gets broken.
Oh and Jinx, it makes sense that a Military faction like the SCRA or HF, they wouldn't properly maintain and keep, in the SCRA's case, their ONLY TWO BATTLESHIPS EVER in a working 100% condition? Military factions as the SCRA or the HF would totally NOT have figured out how to do that after YEARS of use and time spent with their ships?
Yes?
How does that make any a sense. If you rely on something heavily, you ensure that it keeps working no matter the cost.
Techmix-nerf and factions which are unique in RELYING on techmixing - Kaghuros - 12-17-2011
So if you have to be tactical with your current assets, why not be tactical with your future assets? You're getting a full shipline for your non-canon faction, why whine about it? It's not like the Liberty Navy gets to mix tech to face you either.
Techmix-nerf and factions which are unique in RELYING on techmixing - Jinx - 12-17-2011
@display name:
what i wrote is not set in stone - it is but an explanation why it can happen.
i do not deny that there may be a few factions that might justify keeping their gear in 100% condition. - ( i think i even wrote it ) - but we just hope that you are WILLING to give something for a greater good.
- are you not willing to give up the power of 2 of your ships ( if its 2 ) - but gain an even playingfield without prejudice and favourism?
- also - how should i explain to the independent gaian, who is flying an outcast dreadnought with GRN guns - but roleplaying that his RP is "to shoot things" - and also roleplaying ( and really doing that well ) that is he backed up by a huge team that supplies and supports him to keep his ship not only in 100% shape, but also tweaks it a bit.
same thing - small scale. - all i can tell him is
- "sorry dude, you haven t spent enough time here to have this previledge...."
<div align="right]- "but [insert faction here] has mixed tech, too! - and they don t suffer"
- "yes ... i know... they have pleaded for it - and it was approved"
<div align="right]- "is that fair?"
- "well, i guess so - after all, you are just one player and they are - i guess 5 or 6 - and they are an official faction!"
<div align="right]- "but i roleplay the same thing - and i invested a lot of time and efford into that - here come and see"
- "yes, i have seen it - you are doing a GREAT job there - keep up the good work, but i am afraid, you are measured with the "standard" rules of tech-mixing.... . Tell you what... make your own faction and request your own ID and shipline. - i ll help you with that"
<div align="right]- "...."
Techmix-nerf and factions which are unique in RELYING on techmixing - Vito - 12-17-2011
' Wrote:The above is what I personally prefer too, but when I've no quality, I have to resort to quantity.
I refuse to believe you are being serious about that but I am glad you've left the omnipresent disco hypocrisy
aside and you've admitted HF is all PvP and no RP but I am afraid I still think you are being selfish. You think the HF will suffer? How about every single merc or freelancer out there? I don't see the Reavers or Mandalorians complaining about this change.
In the end it comes down to the greater good and this change is the greater good. HF will suffer a lot, I agree, but so will many others and yet Disco will gain more, a lot more. Like I said earlier, not everyone has to be a winner
Techmix-nerf and factions which are unique in RELYING on techmixing - McNeo - 12-17-2011
Quote:"we worked for something and now you're breaking it, and we have to fix it ourselves or try to, again"
Quote:You do realize that if people can't continue to function as before, they'll have to find ways to function and invest work and time and effort into that again just because of some random change?
As far as I'm concerned, having to adapt and change is what disco has always been about.
You'll know more than most how much I (feel that I) got screwed over by bomber changes, yet I couldn't stop it, change it's course or deflect it. It was changed so much that it became unusable to me as it is now.
It happens. Certainly I can say it from experience. I even invested a lot of time to fix it and adapt, and I still failed to do so. You're lucky that the time to succeed or fail hasn't come yet.
This is also true for any other game. They change the warpgate research time for Protoss in SC2, and suddenly 4-gate is no longer the only option in PvP, thereby changing the entire metagame for Protoss mirror matches.
Frankly, I'd also argue that the HF shouldn't be able to go at it head to head with the LN, that the SCRA shouldn't be able to do this with house navies, and so on and so forth. Those rebels in Libya didn't get anywhere without bombs raining on loyalist's heads.
Techmix-nerf and factions which are unique in RELYING on techmixing - jammi - 12-17-2011
To be honest, mixed fleet tactics aren't all that great when you could just field 2 GBs and 5 bombers. That'd get the same thing done just as quickly and with masses less of risk.
You're not really at a disadvantage. The argument that you can't compete without your masses of mixed capital ships isn't really true.
Techmix-nerf and factions which are unique in RELYING on techmixing - Backo - 12-17-2011
Let me tell you the story of AGS-U|, a faction bearing the Unioner ID, which allows up to bomber and only if you grind 40 missions or so for Guard ID up to Gunboat. But sadly we lack our own gunboats, because we aren't renown enough to get our own thing. Of course, we're a Rheinland to Liberty (We roll in Texas from time to time) faction, not a Kusari one so the KuExplorer is out of the question.
Now, what does Rheinland have? RM has a battletrutle, a cruiser, gunboats. So to counter it we either need to get insane amounts of bombers or... use one of our "special" shared ships. The few Rogue Gunboats or our treasured AGS-U|Alsterblut, the Vidar. Now imagine a single capital out on the field dealing with 2-3 RNC indies. The bomber support doing all that it should as expected to even the odds for the outgunned cruiser. Now imagine if our flagship eats the heavy side of the nerf. We'd be back to square one, call 5 friends to log bombers so you can waste 1 turtle before it runs to base.
Some of our "PvP boosters" were actually made so we can actually have any pvp equivalent to our enemies who have free access to ships we can't even dream of having.
So I'm hoping the nerf won't be as insane as dropping the regen down to half, rendering all caps useless and making VHFs weaker then LFs, because 2 shots and 10 sec of dodging isn't cutting it. Or a bomber that fires a SNAC once every minute.
P.S.
' Wrote:- are you not willing to give up the power of 2 of your ships ( if its 2 ) - but gain an even playingfield without prejudice and favourism?
Would that mean our fighter would be equal to the enemy fighter? Would that mean we'd have capitals (at all) to match the enemy capitals?
Techmix-nerf and factions which are unique in RELYING on techmixing - casero - 12-17-2011
I stopped reading at the part where it says HF needs 3 different kind of battleships to play and do their RP.