+- Discovery Gaming Community (https://discoverygc.com/forums)
+-- Forum: Discovery Development (https://discoverygc.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?fid=7)
+--- Forum: Discovery Mod General Discussion (https://discoverygc.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?fid=37)
+---- Forum: Discovery Mod Balance (https://discoverygc.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?fid=31)
+---- Thread: Greyhound...again (/showthread.php?tid=29002)
Greyhound...again - schlurbi - 11-22-2009
You know, if you fly a Bomber against a Battleship or LABC one piloting error can also be your end.
Just saying the ship is fine and people suffer using it wont help anyone. Well maybe you if you cant be arsed to do anything.
Greyhound...again - tansytansey - 11-22-2009
Quote:On the other hand dev team bought (on their own money as always) and used Greyhound and Werewolf to get first hand experience, yet they are told that "it doesn't count cause you don't represent normal players".I believe it was Sindy who said that. I generally have different opinions and ideas to Sindy and the rest of the Rogues.
Quote:Off course this was after the conclusion in previous thread was that Greyhound should get more turning and more guns, while it shouldn't be as hard to kill as in 4.84. Now that it got it, the same people that proposed it argue that it's all wrong.Once again, it wasn't me who came to that conclusion. I just wanted the shield back. Now I just want the class 10 guns back. That's not so imbalancing, since a lot of people will use class 9s still.
Quote:Thanks for admitting, guess we'll talk when you actually fly it. Problem is that now that you "know" it sucks your opinion of it will be highly affected.I'm not posting a response on how I 'feel' the Greyhound flies, because I haven't had the chance to fly it. But I have flown the Greyhound with and without codenames. It doesn't take a genius to figure that out.
See this thread for other funny examples "the power of rumor": http://discoverygc.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=33522
(best one was 90% of Corsairs claiming how Titan suddenly turned much faster in 4.85 when in fact it wasn't changed at all.)
Quote:Liberty Rogues have 2 ships that are best at pirating in their class (by far): Werewolf and Barghest. Arguably they are also worst at fighting fighters in groups in their class, which is what Greyhounds are for.Yet the Werewolf and Barghest are both capable of fighting, not just piracy.
Sorry I've run out of time to reply to all of your post, I'll do so tomorrow before work again. Thanks for taking the time to discuss this.
Greyhound...again - DarthCloakedGuy - 11-22-2009
You know, if you want us to use the Greyhound for "combat rather than piracy" the least you could do would be make it, oh, I dunno, able to fight?
Greyhound...again - tansytansey - 11-23-2009
' Wrote:Liberty Rogues have 2 ships that are best at pirating in their class (by far): Werewolf and Barghest. Arguably they are also worst at fighting fighters in groups in their class, which is what Greyhounds are for.But you must admit, undeniably, if the pilot tries hard enough then they can fight in group fights using a Werewolf or Barghest, they can certainly fight well. However with the fire power of a Greyhound, a transport would have to be sitting still for 10 minutes before you could hope to kill it. A Greyhound isn't even useful for support in piracy, it's damage against graviton transport shields is just too small to make a difference. So what's a Greyhound pilot supposed to do? Sit around waiting and watching everyone else pirate and hope some Navy come along? At least if it had x4 class 10 guns it would be able to deal enough dps to inflict damage on a transport.
Quote:4.84 Homeworld-import Greyhound was a Liberty Rogue icon yes, cause all Rogues flew that one because of explosive invulnerability and bad stats of the Werewolf.An icon is an icon, whether it's a lunchbox, Jarek, Greyhound. Doesn't matter why it's an icon.
Quote:Yes ship uses are pre-defined in Discovery. Balance of each ship tells you what it can or can't do, in some ships are rather universal, meaning that they are relatively good in some areas, while others are better in one area but worse in others to compensate.Should I go apologize to the LABC we killed with 3 fighters, then? Or what about the time that Liberty Rogue Gunboat killed that battleship? The thing we love about Freelancer is that anything is possible if you work hard enough. A light-fighter killing a Gunboat one on one might be a bitof a streach, but with the right loadout and skill set I can see it happening one day. Read: Skill-based game.
Quote:What about the front profile? I don't have the resources on this laptop to check this stuff myself unfortunately. My guess would be the fuselage of the Guardian (excluding wingspan) would be smaller than the Greyhounds. Then the wings are relatively thin as well.
Greyhound vs Guardian size comparison is:
Width: Greyhound half the size of Guardian
Height: same
Length: Greyhound about 50% longer
Quote:Turning is like this:Even when it's explained it still makes little sense to me xD
Mass 3x Steering Torgue, 3x angular Drag, 3x ST/AG ratio (turning speed in different axes, higher=better), 3x Rotation inertian, 3x ST/RI ratio (response to imput, higher=better)
Old Greyhound: 150 45000 45000 70000 38000 38000 60000 1.1842 1.1842 1.1667 5000 5000 9000 9.00 9.00 7.78
New Greyhound: 150 51000 51000 51000 41000 41000 41000 1.2439 1.2439 1.2439 8000 8000 8000 6.38 6.38 6.38
Guardian: 150 47000 47000 190000 40000 40000 141000 1.1750 1.1750 1.3475 8400 8400 8400 5.60 5.60 22.62
X and Y are easy to understand, Z axis ST/AG ratio tells how fast the ship will react to the change in turning direction from one side to another (cause all FL ships first roll and then turn), similarly for ST/RI ratio. So generally it's the "dodging" ability of the ship.
Any way, considering the Guardian is our main opposition, when you compare their stats side by side the Guardian is superior. The only thing the Greyhound has on the Guardian is faster turning, but other ships with reduced fire power, such as Light Fighters, have much faster evasion and turning than the Greyhound. I don't see the Greyhound's turning as being a mid-ground between LF and VHF. But then, it never really has been.
But any way, I'm not so anal about the turning. I'm actually happy with the changes you made for the turning, I think it compensates for the lack of armour and reduced shield power the Greyhound received. However, the addition of a single turret doesn't feel like compensation for a reduced weapon class.
' Wrote:Sure, so if Outcasts are unhappy with Sabre (" it runs out of power so fast") then we buff Sabre? etc etc.Isn't that why the Sabre got it's uber strafe nerfed? Because everyone unanimously decided that it was imbalanced? Or do we only apply that reasoning when we need to nerf something?
Quote:Greyhound isn't and never will be a good ship for flying alone in.It never has been, either. But at least it was possible, and not pre-defined for us. It's not like restoring the class 10 guns is suddenly going to make the ship so game-breakingly uber, I doubt many people will even use codenames any way with the reduced power plant.
Also,
Quote:Guardian: 150 47000 47000 190000 40000 40000 141000 1.1750 1.1750 1.3475 8400 8400 8400 5.60 5.60 22.62Typo?
Greyhound...again - MarvinCZ - 11-23-2009
Greyhound definitely isn't useless as a support ship in piracy. It felt like a decent support ship in anti-cap, at least. Against the Cruisers and Battlecruisers I met together with two Werewolves. I'm sure I caused significant damage with MR, mines and even Sammaels. Mjolnir can testify.
It isn't useless against (very) large Graviton shields, at least as support. There's also always the possibility of mounting a Deb, which I'll probably do. My aim against fighters isn't that great these days, so I'll use the extra shield damage.
Killing LABCs with 3 fighters isn't horrible indeed. Mjolnir described what being pre-destined for something means. The ship is better at some things, worse at others. It doesn't mean you can't do the others. Of course skill has a huge importance on the final outcome. Greyhound isn't useless against transports or caps. It's worse at it than the Werewolf or Barghest, but it can add significantly.
I don't think it -needs- class 10 guns, especially if what you're looking for is damage against shields (it looked like it). The turret actually seems more useful there. You say that 5x lvl 9 is worse than 4x lvl 10 ? So are you saying you would like the old "4x lvl 10 without a turret" more?
Greyhound...again - schlurbi - 11-23-2009
You know, I feel bad thinking about that this Discussion is now over 16 Pages. Then thinking about that you still say it doesnt need a change for the Rogues is even worse.
Greyhound...again - Guest - 11-23-2009
After spending more time on the new greyhound, I must say this. Using nukeTcd on the thing now is simply amazing. The improved agility is actualy felt quite nicely.
*shrugs* Sure the energy drain is a lot more noticable now, however in some way the agility allows for quick bursts of dodging (or shieldrunning) for it to restore...
But I must agree. The 4/0 class 10 grey was a bit more better.
Greyhound...again - tansytansey - 11-24-2009
' Wrote:Greyhound definitely isn't useless as a support ship in piracy. It felt like a decent support ship in anti-cap, at least. Against the Cruisers and Battlecruisers I met together with two Werewolves. I'm sure I caused significant damage with MR, mines and even Sammaels. Mjolnir can testify.There is a difference between capital support and piracy support. One being you need a TCD to be support piracy, or you will find yourself in a position where you're the only one in range for a CD, and you have to let the transport get away because you have a razor. I know this from experience, I flew with a mini razor on my Greyhound for quite some time. It was utterly useless, not enough DPS to be useful, and no TCD to act as an interceptor. Once the bomber weapons came out and I swapped my codes to my Greyhound I discovered it finally had enough DPS to kill transports. Boss can testify, I blew off one of his cargo pods.
Quote:It isn't useless against (very) large Graviton shields, at least as support. There's also always the possibility of mounting a Deb, which I'll probably do. My aim against fighters isn't that great these days, so I'll use the extra shield damage.Are you sure you're using the same Sammaels I am? Especially when a transport is shooting at you, you simply can't deal enough DPS to drop a transport shield. The transport would have to be sitting still and not shooting at you. It was easily possible in 4.84, but not any more.
Quote:Killing LABCs with 3 fighters isn't horrible indeed. Mjolnir described what being pre-destined for something means. The ship is better at some things, worse at others. It doesn't mean you can't do the others. Of course skill has a huge importance on the final outcome.Did I mention one of the fighters was a switchblade?
Quote:Greyhound isn't useless against transports or caps.Please, go kill a transport with Sammaels. Four of them is not enough.
Quote:I don't think it -needs- class 10 guns, especially if what you're looking for is damage against shields (it looked like it). The turret actually seems more useful there. You say that 5x lvl 9 is worse than 4x lvl 10 ?You don't think it does, but I do. I also have a Gaian pirate who flies an Eagle with x2 debilitators. If an Eagle with two debilitators can't kill a transport by the time it flies across the system, how's a Greyhound with one supposed to?
Quote: So are you saying you would like the old "4x lvl 10 without a turret" more?Yes. The difference between my x4 sammael Greyhound and my x2 kintano, x2 Thor's Hammer Greyhound is phenomenal. That's a gap a single debilitator turret can't bridge. I'd prefer to have x4 class 10s and x1 class 5 turret though.
' Wrote:After spending more time on the new greyhound, I must say this. Using nukeTcd on the thing now is simply amazing. The improved agility is actualy felt quite nicely.Yeah but some of us like to use those other things attached to our ships, called guns.
Just kidding Sindy xD
Greyhound...again - MarvinCZ - 11-24-2009
' Wrote:There is a difference between capital support and piracy support. One being you need a TCD to be support piracy, or you will find yourself in a position where you're the only one in range for a CD, and you have to let the transport get away because you have a razor. I know this from experience, I flew with a mini razor on my Greyhound for quite some time. It was utterly useless, not enough DPS to be useful, and no TCD to act as an interceptor. Once the bomber weapons came out and I swapped my codes to my Greyhound I discovered it finally had enough DPS to kill transports. Boss can testify, I blew off one of his cargo pods.Well, Greyhound has to choose his forte, unlike every other Rogue ship that has a "free" CD slot. Tough luck. Not having a CD is not being useless. It means that in a certain set of circumstances you'll have to let a transport go. I'll let those slide in order to be more effective everywhere else. And yes, I have some experience in group pirating. You can choose otherwise, but then face the consequences - reduced damage output.
Quote:Are you sure you're using the same Sammaels I am? Especially when a transport is shooting at you, you simply can't deal enough DPS to drop a transport shield. The transport would have to be sitting still and not shooting at you. It was easily possible in 4.84, but not any more.
Quote:Please, go kill a transport with Sammaels. Four of them is not enough.
Quote:You don't think it does, but I do. I also have a Gaian pirate who flies an Eagle with x2 debilitators. If an Eagle with two debilitators can't kill a transport by the time it flies across the system, how's a Greyhound with one supposed to?SUPPORT SHIP.
You are supposed to be a part of a group. You are describing solo piracy. If the transport is targetting you, everyone else in the group isn't targetted. They get free shots and you can add a bit as well. Also your guns aren't the only ones dealing damage, your guns don't have to be able to tackle a transport alone. Even if you are just two, no trader can stop your only friend from shooting completely (that doesn't happen even against Shires) your guns won't be too weak. Nobody claimed Greyhound will excel at solo piracy. Hey, that's actually what we say it won't be good at!
If you usually struggle against shields, try Screamer mines. The Buccaneers use them and they work wonders against transport shields.
Quote:Did I mention one of the fighters was a switchblade?Did my post sound like it makes any difference for the point discussed? In case you're wondering, it doesn't.
Quote:Yes. The difference between my x4 sammael Greyhound and my x2 kintano, x2 Thor's Hammer Greyhound is phenomenal. That's a gap a single debilitator turret can't bridge. I'd prefer to have x4 class 10s and x1 class 5 turret though.Hmm. For me, the change would be a nerf. I'm using 4/5 Sammaels, I'm going to get a Debilitator gun in place of one - the Deb turret is just lvl 4 (like lvl 8 gun), so gun is better. You can get a Belial turret instead - it's the turret equivalent of Sammael. I think this part is quite open to discussion, though. 4xlvl10 + lvl 5 turret would be just a plain buff though, it really doesn't need that. Before you shout "It does!" PLEASE, fly it for a while.
I did some counting. I compared your code loadout with the 4+1 the current Greyhound can mount. The 4 codes are better overall, although they are lower in shield damage per second - and that is against Graviton shields. They have much lower energy consumption and higher dps against hull. One important thing to note: The codes are all 600m/s, the lvl 9 guns are all 750 m/s. It doesn't matter against transports too much, but much more against fighters.
Important numbers are the sums, you can get efficiency yourself, by dividing dps/eps:
Code:
name # h.dm sh.dm ene rps hull dps sh.dps-Gr ener.ps
Sammael 3 265 132.5 72 8.33 6622.35 2648.94 1799.28
Belial tur. 1 265 132.5 78 8.33 2207.45 882.98 649.74
Imp. Deb 1 40 628 128 4.00 160.00 2009.60 512.00
-------------------------------------------------------------
5xlvl9 8989.80 5541.52 2961.02
Deb disabled 8829.80 (3531.92) 2449.02
KINTANO 2 820 410 168 3.03 4969.20 2484.60 1018.08
THOR. HAM. 2 1350 675 270 2.00 5400.00 2700.00 1080.00
-------------------------------------------------------------
4xlvl10 10369.20 5184.60 2098.08Greyhound...again - tansytansey - 11-24-2009
A Greyhound is still more useful acting as an interceptor during piracy than a damage dealer. A Greyhound can't compete with the fire power of a Werewolf or Barghest for obvious reasons, as a team player you're better off using a CD to help stop your target rather than a mini-razor to deal damage to them. If you're trying to dps in a Greyhound, especially the way it is now, then you might as well fly a Werewolf.
Bah, running out of time before work again.
You mentioned in your post before this one ships preforming tasks outside of what they're 'supposed' to do requires a high skill level. I'm simply asking you give us the ability to use our skills to influence the outcome, rather than being limited. Just like a few fighters killing battlecruisers, a Greyhound isn't designed for piracy, but it should be possible.
As for your stats, calculate how much damage the Greyhound deals with each loadout before they run out of energy.
Off to work, bye!