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+--- Thread: Techmix-nerf and factions which are unique in RELYING on techmixing (/showthread.php?tid=70170)
Techmix-nerf and factions which are unique in RELYING on techmixing - Ayatolah - 12-17-2011
mmm now comes a question that popped in my wrecked mind:
Well, it seems that tech will be nerfed in relation to the ID... am i right? it apllies to the gear mixing in a single ship too?
For example, in our case we have acces to the entire Brigand guns and shipline, is pretty obvious that, even if allowed by the rules... is a bit odd to find Arquebuses in... let's say Sabre for an example, it would create an "incompatibility" between ship and gun system, BUT, what if the ship in question is a Mistral (the brigand LF) armed with arquebuses, which is their proper weapon, in the Merc/Pirate IDed ship? it would be a nerf too?
second thing, one of the most used guns for nearly everyone are the civilian debilitators, that mean that anyone who has a faction ID and non generic, will get nerfed too in the use of debs?, not to mention that i have seen faction IDs using civy ships... will it be a nerf too?
Techmix-nerf and factions which are unique in RELYING on techmixing - Maelstrom - 12-17-2011
Quote:Oh, and you know what, you try RPing a Military force that fights against the Liberty Navy on a daily basis without a functioning fleet to back up the pvp-part of your RP, then you can tell me that the HF doesn't need the junk it has
I did it with an Anki and no back up. I fought the Liberty AND Rhineland millitaries in a KuEx GB and no back up. Lots of people do. I've seen many do it in a starflea just on a lark. I stand by my words. You are just QQing because you are not going to be able to min max pvp ability through tech mixing now.
Your role play is NOT about the blue messages and the ID is NOT the roleplay of the faction. The HF have a reason for what they do and clear and defined goals. They do not exist merely to kill everything and thier goal isn't to get four blue messages before dinner.
Techmix-nerf and factions which are unique in RELYING on techmixing - Blighter - 12-17-2011
' Wrote:I did it with an Anki and no back up. I fought the Liberty AND Rhineland millitaries in a KuEx GB and no back up. Lots of people do. I've seen many do it in a starflea just on a lark. I stand by my words. You are just QQing because you are not going to be able to min max pvp ability through tech mixing now.
Your role play is NOT about the blue messages and the ID is NOT the roleplay of the faction. The HF have a reason for what they do and clear and defined goals. They do not exist merely to kill everything and thier goal isn't to get four blue messages before dinner.
Are YOU a faction of which the JOB inRP is to FIGHT an entire Military? No? The HF is. And oh yes, our RP is NOT about the blue messages and the ID is NOT the RP of the faction, but the ID tells us what we CAN and CAN NOT do, such are the RULES of Discovery, and even if none of that may be the RP of the faction, the RP IS to fight the Liberty Military with the ultimate (and unattainable) goal of bringing it to its knees and replacing it, and that TRANSLATES into shooting and blue messages.
Techmix-nerf and factions which are unique in RELYING on techmixing - jammi - 12-17-2011
' Wrote:Are YOU a faction of which the JOB inRP is to FIGHT an entire Military? No? The HF is. And oh yes, our RP is NOT about the blue messages and the ID is NOT the RP of the faction, but the ID tells us what we CAN and CAN NOT do, such are the RULES of Discovery, and even if none of that may be the RP of the faction, the RP IS to fight the Liberty Military with the ultimate (and unattainable) goal of bringing it to its knees and replacing it, and that TRANSLATES into shooting and blue messages.
' Wrote:To be honest, mixed fleet tactics aren't all that great when you could just field 2 GBs and 5 bombers. That'd get the same thing done just as quickly and with masses less of risk.You can still do the exact same thing with the exact same number of ships.
You're not really at a disadvantage. The argument that you can't compete without your masses of mixed capital ships isn't really true.
Techmix-nerf and factions which are unique in RELYING on techmixing - Maelstrom - 12-17-2011
Quote:Are YOU a faction of which the JOB inRP is to FIGHT an entire Military? No?
Nope, neither of those characters were in a faction whose job was to fight an entire millitary. One was a vigilante whose job was to fight two millitaries and the other was a mercenary whose job was to fight one millitary. What kind of toys you get isn't, and shouldn't be, based solely on what your role is. It's also about resources such as manpower, money, food, and developed and developing technologies. Just because your role is to fight the millitary doesn't mean you get every capship in the millitaries zoi to do it with. My vigilante used the KuEx as his flagship. He brought it out to fight the big stuff and lost every encounter because he was always outnumbered horribly. That fact didn't change his role or what tech was available to him in the least.
Techmix-nerf and factions which are unique in RELYING on techmixing - AeternusDoleo - 12-17-2011
' Wrote:No, it is NOT okay, I have been saying that it is NOT okay even if the system looks to be OKAY and all NICE, I'm saying it ain't okay because it doesn't take into account what previously was there, what was worked for by anyone, what people previously had acquired etcetera into account. It doesn't take the HF into account, it doesn't take the SCRA into account, it doesn't take the guy with the only white-cell permitted Aquilon into account, it doesn't take Joe whitecell boat A with whitecell shooters B - which Joe had to work for so he could acquire and use them - into account. It looks at those and says: All that history and RP and whatever you did with it or how old it is DOES NOT MATTER. You get treated like everyone else.Tell me, why is it that every pipsqueek faction on the server -needs- their own frickin' battleships all of a sudden? Why is it that every pipsqueek faction suddenly has the -huge- civilian infrastructure neccesary to maintain a capital fleet? There are many factions that do NOT have a full shipline or dedicated line of their own. Bundshuh, Hogosha, AFA, Mollies, Liberty Rogues, Xenos, Lane Hackers, Outcasts... Most of which are all ALSO based around pewpew. HF has a bomber, a VHF, a LF, a gunboat and a powerful, but big battleship. They are definately not the worst off, so quit your pointless Q_Q. It's quite frankly, getting pathetic.
So I ask: Is it actually "fair" to not take account peoples' previous efforts? Be they faction or otherwise, I'm sure they invested time and effort into getting their stuff, and now they'll get all their stuff nerfed even though they did work for it and all, just because? Do you know how much RP and time people invested into getting XYZ as the tech-chart permitted? This system's not only just going to limit some let's say "tech-abuse" or rather nerf that, it also screws with all the legit non-abusing stuff. Why?
The old system had been in place for like over two and a half years. Do you understand that? A lot of time and effort by people went into acquiring or reaquiring what they had or have now, and you're slapping some arbitrary nerf on it "for the greater good", not taking any and all effort into account.
And no, the HF hasn't been created FOR THE SOLE PURPOSE of techmixing, but it had to BUILD AROUND TECHMIXING because the HF DOES NOT AND WILL NOT HAVE A COMPLETE SHIPLINE. And who are you to say what has a -right- to exist and doesn't? You have no right whatsoever to deny the HF or any other faction the right to exist, we play here too, we are part of this community, we play the game and do RP just as everyone else. Who are you to suggest that you'd deny us the right to exist and on what grounds? Because we had to work with what we had, that is no tech of our own, and actually DID so successfully? And now we've to kick all that into trash? All the work, time, effort, history behind it, anything?
Okay. Then YOU give the SCRA a light Battleship to replace their Osirises. YOU give the HF shipclasses to replace each used kind of ship. YOU give the LWB and Bundschuh their own shiplines. YOU make it so EVERYONE who has characters mentioned in the tech-permissions thread can continue functioning as before without some arbitrary nerf AT THEIR COST, while YOU ensure the "balance and fairness" of that system of yours, a system that is kicking the HF's balance down the drain.
And no, you don't need to kick your existing "begtechyescanhaz" deals into the trash. You can keep using them, just not with a small correction for balance purposes. If you absolutely feel you cannot live without full power, use your own damn snubs and guns - that's what you are getting them for. Yea, in the past you had to use other tech. Now you got your own, so that reason no longer holds.
And no. YOU learn to play with the tools available to your faction. Just like every other faction does. "My faction is pvp only" is not a valid reason to go around this. If that's the case then your faction has no place in a RP server!
Frankly, you're starting to piss me off. Crying loudly does not get you any exception, I'm getting the impression that that's what you're after.
[Edit] Oh, and at below? Retreat is also a tactical maneuver. Do some damage and withdraw. Snubs are very capable of evading enemy caps. That's how terrorist factions work - and let's face it, the HF is not a faction capable of going toe to toe with the LN in a sustained engagement IRPly. If you're incapable of ending an engagement with anything but blue messages then expect those to be your own from time to time.
Techmix-nerf and factions which are unique in RELYING on techmixing - Blighter - 12-17-2011
' Wrote:As far as I'm concerned, having to adapt and change is what disco has always been about.
You'll know more than most how much I (feel that I) got screwed over by bomber changes, yet I couldn't stop it, change it's course or deflect it. It was changed so much that it became unusable to me as it is now.
It happens. Certainly I can say it from experience. I even invested a lot of time to fix it and adapt, and I still failed to do so. You're lucky that the time to succeed or fail hasn't come yet.
This is also true for any other game. They change the warpgate research time for Protoss in SC2, and suddenly 4-gate is no longer the only option in PvP, thereby changing the entire metagame for Protoss mirror matches.
Frankly, I'd also argue that the HF shouldn't be able to go at it head to head with the LN, that the SCRA shouldn't be able to do this with house navies, and so on and so forth. Those rebels in Libya didn't get anywhere without bombs raining on loyalist's heads.
Change and adapting to it are fine, but this goes beyond the level of change, this is messing with factions' gameplay elements, core gameplay elements in the HF's case, and that in a severe and bad way.
The time to succeed and fail came when .85 came and we had all kinds of things broken, and things which should've been there weren't, and we had to rebuild our gameplay from scratch to adapt to the new system, and we only could to that by scavenging whatever we could from anywhere we could to adapt to the dynamic battlefield in a mod environment that's been steadily moving away from the focus on individual skill to a focus on group combat and tactics, else we wouldn't have stood a chance doing our core gameplay element without resorting to the dreaded BS spam.
And I understand your point about the latter, but you know that I've always been an advocate of the in-game part being taken into account more, so I say until we can't do it in the game, we'll keep going at it head to head, eye for an eye, as is our custom and has been for the last two years at minimum.
' Wrote:You can still do the exact same thing with the exact same number of ships.
I can't do it with any tactical diversity because as someone who's led countless cap-raids and raids otherwise I know that sometimes, you use ship A for job Z while other times you use ship B for job Y or may use C for X. And no, I can't field the 2 GB and 5 Bombers against a fleet comprised of two Dreads, two Battlecruisers and two Siege Cruisers, because the battlefield is DYNAMIC and reinforcements from here or there can always show up. The HF's only effective way to counter the excessive capspam sometimes observed here and there is TACTICS. Not NUMBERS. And you need a HUGE amount of Bombers to kill two Dreads alone FASTER than the reinforcements have a chance to curbstomp you, and in ANY house, there is ALWAYS reinforcements. So don't tell me I can do the same thing with the same number of ships if the fleet gets nerferized, because I can't do the SAME thing.
I can ACHIEVE the same RESULT in a different way, but that means a very big amount of Spyglasses and trying to outnumber law's armor with HF's own.
That would be fun for everyone.
Not.
' Wrote:Nope, neither of those characters were in a faction whose job was to fight an entire millitary. One was a vigilante whose job was to fight two millitaries and the other was a mercenary whose job was to fight one millitary. What kind of toys you get isn't, and shouldn't be, based solely on what your role is. It's also about resources such as manpower, money, food, and developed and developing technologies. Just because your role is to fight the millitary doesn't mean you get every capship in the millitaries zoi to do it with. My vigilante used the KuEx as his flagship. He brought it out to fight the big stuff and lost every encounter because he was always outnumbered horribly. That fact didn't change his role or what tech was available to him in the least.
Well if they weren't in a faction whose job was to fight an entire Military, then maybe that's hardly relevant because this is mostly a topic regarding factions? Factions who have long-standing RP and history behind what they do and what they use, and like in the damn HF's case are being given the finger in regards to their RP which goes hand-in-hand with PvP and their core gameplay element? The core being what this faction is built around, the "goal to bring Liberty's military to its knees and replace it", something which a faction that isn't a POLITICAL one in any way cannot do without either weakening Liberty's economy - which the HF is inRP AGAINST as we even shadow or escort legal trade here and there, even if rarely - so we'd never, ever pirate, which with the economical and political aspects out of the picture leaves us the MILITARY one, which translates into doing some good old-fashioned PvP action? Yes? I have XYZ things that'll get auto-nerfed with the new mod version which are my personal ships, and I don't even care that much, because that's just my boats, but this here? This is about FACTIONS. Which have HISTORY on the face of Discovery. Which are comprised of MULTIPLE people. Which all are part of something BIGGER than them alone as individuals.
Techmix-nerf and factions which are unique in RELYING on techmixing - viragons - 12-17-2011
It seems to me that someone here thinks they are the only faction in the server....
Techmix-nerf and factions which are unique in RELYING on techmixing - Blighter - 12-17-2011
' Wrote:Tell me, why is it that every pipsqueek faction on the server -needs- their own frickin' battleships all of a sudden? Why is it that every pipsqueek faction suddenly has the -huge- civilian infrastructure neccesary to maintain a capital fleet? There are many factions that do NOT have a full shipline or dedicated line of their own. Bundshuh, Hogosha, AFA, Mollies, Liberty Rogues, Xenos, Lane Hackers, Outcasts... Most of which are all ALSO based around pewpew. HF has a bomber, a VHF, a LF, a gunboat and a powerful, but big battleship. They are definately not the worst off, so quit your pointless Q_Q. It's quite frankly, getting pathetic.
And no, you don't need to kick your existing "begtechyescanhaz" deals into the trash. You can keep using them, just not with a small correction for balance purposes. If you absolutely feel you cannot live without full power, use your own damn snubs and guns - that's what you are getting them for. Yea, in the past you had to use other tech. Now you got your own, so that reason no longer holds.
And no. YOU learn to play with the tools available to your faction. Just like every other faction does. "My faction is pvp only" is not a valid reason to go around this. If that's the case then your faction has no place in a RP server!
Frankly, you're starting to piss me off. Crying loudly does not get you any exception, I'm getting the impression that that's what you're after.
HF learned to do it before and adapted to the changing environment and it took lots of effort to get where we are now. All that effort goes to waste because of some new system imposed on the whole of Discovery. Oh, by the way, come 86 HF has LESS SHIPS than they've now.
You realize HF loses complete access to anything Lane Hacker, except the Spyglass which'll eventually be a HF Battleship? That means HF gets a VHF, a GB, a BS.
Now it can use, MIXTECH ASIDE: Falchion, Bayonet, Broadsword, LHGS, Spyglass.
WE CAN'T USE FOUR OF THOSE IN .86. SO WE'RE TWO SHIPS SHORT TOO.
The rest? Generic / BW tech aside from the handful of caps our fleet's comprised of.
So get your facts straight before you try to BS here.
Oh and you know, I'll bring in that aside from XENOS in Liberty, the HF isn't allied with anyone else INSIDE the house, with the only other alliances being one with Mollys and one with Unioners.
You know why?
Because after XYZ YEARS of being "generic unlawfuls with BSes" and XYZ times we had to listen to complaints, we found a suitable way and have slowly worked towards changing our RP to be that of a Military force that detests things like Cardamine, Piracy, and otherwise.
We have adapted and adapted and adapted again and now you're nerfing our fleet which itself is the result of us adapting to the damn system. Our balance proposals of our ships are laid out to COMPLEMENT our existing fleet, all the hardware is laid out this way, not to WTFPWN.
What's actually pathetic is that a "4.86 Development team member" who preaches of making things fair and whatever other crap you spew actually is completely missing that by implementation of this system several factions get nerfed as the result of a tech-nerf.
And don't try telling me that a faction with a pvp focus has no place on a RP server where the pvp on the server is an INTEGRAL component of the whole server's RP and well-being, SO INTEGRAL in fact that we have a whole balance team going to make things "balanced".
Techmix-nerf and factions which are unique in RELYING on techmixing - Taneru - 12-17-2011
Enough.
Ench, hammering the point into everyone isn't working. From what I'm hearing, it's not going to be a crippling nerf, though it will make things harder. Honestly, though, with the rest of the changes I've heard about, we're looking at a major tactical reworking anyways.
We'll suffer through it.
I feel for the other groups getting hit by this, but maybe this'll promote civilian and BW usage a bit more, as it was in vanilla....