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+--- Thread: ZA: End war talk (/showthread.php?tid=103684)
RE: ZA: End war talk - Oorn - 09-01-2013
(09-01-2013, 10:41 PM)Omicron Wrote: Oorn, your entire logic fails with first time you assume Zoners can actually live through conquest and military firepower which is against the very Zoner lore. Also Order is incomprehensibly bigger war-party in comparison to Zoners, military-wise. Only militaries of houses can outdwarf Order or Core fleets.
And your logistic fails the moment you assume fleet is everything. Without Zoners support all your shiny fleet will literally STARVE to death. Last time I checked, Zoners and Order are engaged in MUTUALLY beneficial relations. You propose that Zoners should silently follow every unreasonable demand order makes, while inrp order is unfriendly/hostile to every other neighbors. And if you have such epic fleet, why are being forced into retreat irp? (Minor)
P.s I would like to see something similar to Bretonia / Rheinland conflict. Mass attack irp people that are not your enemies? Get your base captured by Core.
RE: ZA: End war talk - Omicron - 09-01-2013
For supplies concern, Phoenix is fully backing the Order. No faction of Zoners - exception being ZA obviously - had ANY objections to this war. Your logic continues to fail.
RE: ZA: End war talk - Thyrzul - 09-01-2013
(09-01-2013, 10:07 PM)Oorn Wrote: 1) ZA is big militarised organisation aimed towards protecting zoners through EXCESSIVE military strength. In order to further that strength they started developing recently designed cloaking devices on their factories.
That's in-game stuff. The overuse of Zoner caps compared to the might lore-wise Zoners may have is an issue and has been for years as topics discussing this and their removal happen to pop up from time to time. That they are armed to this extent is in conflict of existing parts of the Zoner lore.
(09-01-2013, 10:07 PM)Oorn Wrote: 3) Order makes an ULTIMATUM to major (power-wise) military faction of their only ALLIES in Omicrons. Instead of fighting Core, or targeting factions that are involved with possibly deadly alien artifacts, they target a fortified instalation of their only allies that grabed some useless corpses.
ZA, RP-wise, could barely be considered a major military faction. As an unofficial faction, they do not represent Zoners as a whole (the official faction, Phoenix do, with TAZ and OSI having their own IDs). If they happen not to behave like allies, that doesn't mean Order-Zoner relations are ruined, only that Order-ZA relations are.
(09-01-2013, 10:07 PM)Oorn Wrote: 4) Having military strength no inferior to Order [courtesy of Jinx], ZA refuses demands made by Order, as having their military power reduced for purely speculative reasons as well as losing any authority they have in the sector seems unaxeptable to them.
Again, no inferior strength in-game, but that's been subject of debates over the years as much as it currently is, as I have said before. The military power of the ZA is being distributed and used in a way opposing the interests of both Order and the rest of the nearby Zoners. The reasons of the Order are more than speculative, they have had evidence of ZA bases having those materials on board. InRP ZA doesn't have the authority they claim to have and would have never gained such if certain features of the server would have not exist at the time the conflict escalated.
(09-01-2013, 10:07 PM)Oorn Wrote: 5) As if war vs Core and Nomads and loss od Minor wasn't enough they start open siege versus heavily fotified system of their allies.
They are not fighting their allies, they are fighting a group of renegades having been endangering the freedom of their allies by those JumpHole-blocking stations.
(09-01-2013, 10:07 PM)Oorn Wrote: 6) Other Zoner groups view ZA actions as wrong, and take Order stance, refusing them any support while suporting Order, and pushing Order "diplomatic" solutions that limit ZA in various ways.
The initial directive which ZA defied has limited the whole Zoner community, only that the rest of it accepted this directive. This defiance turned Order and other Zoner groups against the ZA. Diplomatic solutions were well reasoned from the side of the Order, I can't say the same about the refusals from the other side. What I witnessed from the side of ZA were utterly negative and deceptive propaganda out to the public, posing as freedom fighters while the rest communicated the opposite, defamation of the Order and general denial of communication most of the time.
(09-01-2013, 10:29 PM)Oorn Wrote: Are you saying all those pobs don't exist irp?
Those PoBs should have not resist such a force the ZA angered against themselves inRP. It's merely the faulty game mechanics resulting from this feature still being in Alpha phase that allowed the defenders to exploit it and keep the stations alive with so little effort. It wasn't the first case of such exploitation happening, yet it might have been the first case when this whole has been used for inRP powerplaying.
EDIT:
EDIT:
(09-01-2013, 10:52 PM)Oorn Wrote: P.s I would like to see something similar to Bretonia / Rheinland conflict. Mass attack irp people that are not your enemies? Get your base captured by Core.
Aaaaand, you would get from ZA what exactly?
RE: ZA: End war talk - Oorn - 09-01-2013
(09-01-2013, 10:57 PM)Omicron Wrote: For supplies concern, Phoenix is fully backing the Order. No faction of Zoners - exception being ZA obviously - had ANY objections to this war. Your logic continues to fail.
Sooo you say, because some zoners aprove you to marshe your big e-fleet into their home system and start blowing shits to bits because of corpses that are harmless and strengthen your direct allies, is enough reason to divert your military force from war you lose and attack said allies? That's some top level strategy here.
RE: ZA: End war talk - Oorn - 09-01-2013
Thyrzul, from what I see before this event ZA were not renegades. They were supporting order war effort, they were helping order battle nomads, war that order loses. Said bases are valuable asset against nomad fleet. Instead, order decides to lose such ally, as well as divert part of fleet to silence them. RP was horrible on both sides here, and order demands total surrender as of now. They do NOT have moral high ground here. Perfect solution would be for Order to start losing NPC bases, if they see complete logic in their actions.
RE: ZA: End war talk - Omicron - 09-01-2013
Order, unlike Core doesn't have Corsairs on their doorstep to handle. ZA is too insignificant to change course of the Core-Order conflict. It's like dropping a hammer on a pest while taking temporary break from your ussual warmongering.
RE: ZA: End war talk - Oorn - 09-01-2013
(09-01-2013, 11:12 PM)Omicron Wrote: Order, unlike Core doesn't have Corsairs on their doorstep to handle. ZA is too insignificant to change course of the Core-Order conflict. It's like dropping a hammer on a pest while taking temporary break from your ussual warmongering.
I see you indeed had your planet nuked for a reason.
For some reason you firmly hold position of fighting anyone BUT the nomads.
RE: ZA: End war talk - Thyrzul - 09-01-2013
(09-01-2013, 11:12 PM)Oorn Wrote: Thyrzul, from what I see before this event ZA were not renegades. They were supporting order war effort, they were helping order battle nomads, war that order loses. Said bases are valuable asset against nomad fleet. Instead, order decides to lose such ally, as well as divert part of fleet to silence them. RP was horrible on both sides here, and order demands total surrender as of now. They do NOT have moral high ground here. Perfect solution would be for Order to start losing NPC bases, if they see complete logic in their actions.
ZA became renegades when they denied to comply with something logical no other Zoner had problems with. They built their bases to defend against nomads (or at least they claimed so, but even if it is true), then later they used it for blockading the system from everybody. While they may have proven to be valuable against nomads, they also have proven to be harmful, it is only logical that Order tries to lift the blockade from that system said to be serving as some sort of highway within the Omicrons, a passage connecting otherwise distant systems. I do not find the necessity of Order losing NPC bases, just because a group of players decided to play the big angry Zoners and do stuff in the name of the Zoners, against the interests of Zoners...
RE: ZA: End war talk - Omicron - 09-01-2013
Angry Zoners happen all the time. So far the only suffering ones are said Zoners themselves. Go apply your logic to Zoner Council and (real) Zoner Alliance.
RE: ZA: End war talk - Oorn - 09-01-2013
(09-01-2013, 11:21 PM)Thyrzul Wrote:ZA became renegades when they denied to comply with something logical no other Zoner had problems with. They built their bases to defend against nomads (or at least they claimed so, but even if it is true), then later they used it for blockading the system from everybody. While they may have proven to be valuable against nomads, they also have proven to be harmful, it is only logical that Order tries to lift the blockade from that system said to be serving as some sort of highway within the Omicrons, a passage connecting otherwise distant systems. I do not find the necessity of Order losing NPC bases, just because a group of players decided to play the big angry Zoners and do stuff in the name of the Zoners, against the interests of Zoners...
From what I have heard, order aggression came before system lockdown. Otherwise my arguments indeed are pointless.
I kinda understand what "we at war no more rp" means now. So far Omicron arguments are "we have bigger fleet so you obey us, if not we kill you". Perfect display indeed...
Too bad all official faction haters already left, it would never been fun shitstorm.
Good night everyone.