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+--- Thread: Remove Nomad Cruiser Missions / Replace Nomad Cruisers in Missions with Battleships (/showthread.php?tid=162196)
RE: Remove Nomad Cruiser Missions / Replace Nomad Cruisers in Missions with Battleships - Isha - 06-21-2018
Nomad remains should never become available via missions. The only way to get them should be by going to Nomad Worlds. Nowadays it's too easy to get them and noone ever bothers visiting Iota or Major. Nomad missions are fun, but they should offer a higher monetary reward instead of remains. Major actually requires cooperation (if you don't kill one in time, another will respawn on your donkey and poof) instead of random right clicks at maximum range.
tl : dr add special Nomad npcs for missions, which will drop either regular credit cards or just increase monetary reward from such missions + keep remains within Iota/Major/Psi
In the past, back when there were no Nomad missions at all, farming remains was something special. Remains in missions kill the spirit and actual risk.
RE: Remove Nomad Cruiser Missions / Replace Nomad Cruisers in Missions with Battleships - E X O D I T E - 06-21-2018
Actually, gonna pop back in here again. Core doesn't have a Heavy BS, so it can't farm as well as literally any other ID with Omicron ZOI. And there's a trick to finding missions with Duks.
My findings, from missioning around in Delta with my cap buddies are:
- 5 million - 5,8 million = up to 15 Irras as a typical mission
- 4,4 million - 4,9 million = up to 6 Duks/10 Irras as a typical mission
- Anything under 4 million is typically Irras/Nammus
Hope that helps.
RE: Remove Nomad Cruiser Missions / Replace Nomad Cruisers in Missions with Battleships - Sombs - 06-21-2018
First of all, that was not an insult. Lyth literally wrote that statement about Capetown in Minor when the patch hit.
So, let me break it down for you, why I'm actually pissed to see this thread.
1. It's another Lyth-rants thread and tries to lobby once again.
2. Hurricanes and their AOE damage effectively killed the difficulty of doing NPC missions. That is a general problem and I know I'm not the only one complaining about it, which is good. Yeah, it's nice to conveniently spawm Hurricanes but doing NPC missions like that was not the idea behind it. Of course, people saw the exploitability only after the weapon was put into the game. Which leads us to the next point.
3. Where is the challenge in firing Hurricanes at Marduks that fly in formation? There is none. You, the Core|, want so desperately to be the faction that farms nomads. Good, do that in the Nomad Worlds, not 25k from Yaren/FP11 away. Don't compare farming BS remains with other NPC missions if you on the other hand don't want other aspects of the missions to be compared. Unlawfuls do anti-lawful capital missions to enter lawful space and thus offering themselves to the lawful enemy - since lawfuls can't really leave their ZoI to attack the enemy at their home (for example, Corsairs do said missions in Cambridge and Poole, while Bretonia can't come to the Omegas and Omicrons to do anti-Corsair missions there without a HUGE break of immersion). Yes, there is a certain inequality when it comes to making money. Unlawfuls get so much more money than lawfuls for missions - as they can sell Fleet Admirals of the houses, while battleships of Unlawfuls drop just a bunch of pilots. On the other hand, try to trade as unlawful - that is easier as lawful entity.
Long story short, Core has a unique standing in this. On one hand, BS remains are currently traded at less than ten millions per unit - thanks to Hurricanes, by the way; while Core| specifically said they won't sell BS remains for just 10 millions per unit in one of the latest posts. So if you have a Marduk mission, 25k away from Yaren, have spawn 2-3 Marduks, which aren't a threat thanks to Hurricanes, you make multiple DOZENs of MILLIONS for having launched Hurricanes, without much threat. Omicron Delta is a tiny system compared to Cambridge, for example, which is twice as large. In Delta, it is not hard to escape from a fight by simply combat-docking as you have stuff in 30k distance - a distance battleships can easily overcome while dodging enemy bullets, by the way.
You said it yourself: People need remains for building cloaks. It should not be easy to pull that off. It should not happen in Delta at all, and super-especially not in a convenient way if you want to make money from it. The solution IS IN THE GAME. Go to Psi, at the Ravine. If you like a harder challenge, go to Major. Psi is, by the way, significantly easier. Talking from experience here.
So, yeah, I'm really pissed if I see the demand for making money EVEN MORE EASIER. Lyth said they have Capetown for convenience, and it was stupidly placed in a system that had the unique trait of being a system without base. Now it has Capetown and a Junker base. Don't get me wrong, I'm a fan of Capetown having returned after vanishing without a word, together with Zeta. But why it's not actually used to stage raids into the Nomad territory is beyond me. It's assbackwards.
RE: Remove Nomad Cruiser Missions / Replace Nomad Cruisers in Missions with Battleships - Lythrilux - 06-21-2018
(06-21-2018, 10:22 PM)Isha Wrote: Nomad remains should never become available via missions. The only way to get them should be by going to Nomad Worlds. Nowadays it's too easy to get them and noone ever bothers visiting Iota or Major. Nomad missions are fun, but they should offer a higher monetary reward instead of remains. Major actually requires cooperation (if you don't kill one in time, another will respawn on your donkey and poof) instead of random right clicks at maximum range.
tl : dr add special Nomad npcs for missions, which will drop either regular credit cards or just increase monetary reward from such missions + keep remains within Iota/Major/Psi
In the past, back when there were no Nomad missions at all, farming remains was something special. Remains in missions kill the spirit and actual risk.
The thing is I'm actually not too sure if it's worse for [Nomad] activity by having missions in Delta. Case and point:
- Omicron Major has no Nomad/Wild bases. Alien players must come from either Iota at best, Delta at worst, in order to intercept.
- The system is large (when considering farming) and thus fairly easy to lose Nomads/Wild in.
- The system has two exits, one which is one-way and throws you back into fairly neutral space.
Comparatively, Omicron Delta has a Nomad/Wild base, and frequently the missions zones spawn quite close to hostile bases - or at least near factions who would not be happy to see you farming. I would not say it's too easy to get them, as many times I have ambushed mission farmers and interrupted their operators. Wild have also done the same in the past to us as well. My belief is missions actually increase the convenience for ALL factions/roles, whether that be farming the remains themselves, or ambushing people doing the farming.
I disagree that missions require less cooperation, however. Missions have allowed Core| to orchestrate cooperative farming operations with its members as well as indies.
(06-21-2018, 10:30 PM)Exo the Plier Guy Wrote: Actually, gonna pop back in here again. Core doesn't have a Heavy BS, so it can't farm as well as literally any other ID with Omicron ZOI. And there's a trick to finding missions with Duks.
My findings, from missioning around in Delta with my cap buddies are:
- 5 million - 5,8 million = up to 15 Irras as a typical mission
- 4,4 million - 4,9 million = up to 6 Duks/10 Irras as a typical mission
- Anything under 4 million is typically Irras/Nammus
Hope that helps.
Thanks, we'll run those and see what happens.
RE: Remove Nomad Cruiser Missions / Replace Nomad Cruisers in Missions with Battleships - Sombs - 06-21-2018
The spawn of Marduks is not related to the reward, but to the difficulty. Any mission ranging from 40 to 50 can spawn Marduks. Higher is more likely.
RE: Remove Nomad Cruiser Missions / Replace Nomad Cruisers in Missions with Battleships - E X O D I T E - 06-21-2018
(06-21-2018, 10:36 PM)Sombra Hookier Wrote: The spawn of Marduks is not related to the reward, but to the difficulty. Any mission ranging from 40 to 50 can spawn Marduks. Higher is more likely.
I was under the impression that reward correlates to difficulty.
Highest level missions are Irra-exclusive, or I had a consistent run of bad luck for literal months.
RE: Remove Nomad Cruiser Missions / Replace Nomad Cruisers in Missions with Battleships - Princess_Stardust - 06-21-2018
never even had a normad mission
where are they?
RE: Remove Nomad Cruiser Missions / Replace Nomad Cruisers in Missions with Battleships - Sombs - 06-21-2018
(06-21-2018, 10:38 PM)Exo the Plier Guy Wrote:(06-21-2018, 10:36 PM)Sombra Hookier Wrote: The spawn of Marduks is not related to the reward, but to the difficulty. Any mission ranging from 40 to 50 can spawn Marduks. Higher is more likely.
I was under the impression that reward correlates to difficulty.
Highest level missions are Irra-exclusive, or I had a consistent run of bad luck for literal months.
You had bad luck or the mission files of Discovery are looking different for you than for anyone else.
RE: Remove Nomad Cruiser Missions / Replace Nomad Cruisers in Missions with Battleships - E X O D I T E - 06-21-2018
(06-21-2018, 10:39 PM)Princess_Stardust Wrote: never even had a normad mission
where are they?
DEATH, PAIN AND SUFFERING
In all seriousness, a Nomad mission is one wherein you take a NPC mission against Nomads.
If you are unprepared, you will die.
A lot.
The best places to get anti-Nom missions are in Delta. Get ready to kill a lot of Irras.
(06-21-2018, 10:40 PM)Sombra Hookier Wrote:(06-21-2018, 10:38 PM)Exo the Plier Guy Wrote:(06-21-2018, 10:36 PM)Sombra Hookier Wrote: The spawn of Marduks is not related to the reward, but to the difficulty. Any mission ranging from 40 to 50 can spawn Marduks. Higher is more likely.
I was under the impression that reward correlates to difficulty.
Highest level missions are Irra-exclusive, or I had a consistent run of bad luck for literal months.
You had bad luck or the mission files of Discovery are looking different for you than for anyone else.
Bad luck on my part then; I would have said hello to the anticheat by now.
RE: Remove Nomad Cruiser Missions / Replace Nomad Cruisers in Missions with Battleships - Lythrilux - 06-21-2018
(06-21-2018, 10:34 PM)Sombra Hookier Wrote: 1. It's another Lyth-rants thread and tries to lobby once again.
How is this even a point? Anyone could have made this thread. If Implo made it, would you make the same point? Is any thread with a different point of view to you a "[member]-rants and tries to lobby once again" thread? The suggestion in this thread has been made for the benefit of all players, not just myself. Try to not be so negative.
(06-21-2018, 10:34 PM)Sombra Hookier Wrote: 2. Hurricanes and their AOE damage effectively killed the difficulty of doing NPC missions. That is a general problem and I know I'm not the only one complaining about it, which is good. Yeah, it's nice to conveniently spawm Hurricanes but doing NPC missions like that was not the idea behind it. Of course, people saw the exploitability only after the weapon was put into the game. Which leads us to the next point.
3. Where is the challenge in firing Hurricanes at Marduks that fly in formation? There is none. You, the Core|, want so desperately to be the faction that farms nomads. Good, do that in the Nomad Worlds, not 25k from Yaren/FP11 away. Don't compare farming BS remains with other NPC missions if you on the other hand don't want other aspects of the missions to be compared. Unlawfuls do anti-lawful capital missions to enter lawful space and thus offering themselves to the lawful enemy - since lawfuls can't really leave their ZoI to attack the enemy at their home (for example, Corsairs do said missions in Cambridge and Poole, while Bretonia can't come to the Omegas and Omicrons to do anti-Corsair missions there without a HUGE break of immersion). Yes, there is a certain inequality when it comes to making money. Unlawfuls get so much more money than lawfuls for missions - as they can sell Fleet Admirals of the houses, while battleships of Unlawfuls drop just a bunch of pilots. On the other hand, try to trade as unlawful - that is easier as lawful entity.
NPCs were never the difficulty in missions. The difficulty was managing your damage so that when a hostile player comes along you're not a sitting duck waiting to be ripped apart and have your hard earn remains plucked from your charred corpse. Generally speaking, you could always brush off NPC Duks in 99, especially in groups. Even regardless of this, I'd actually argue that the damage from the increased spontaneous spawn of NPCs in missions is greater to that than bad-AI Marduks spawning 2 minutes apart from each other in 99. Delta is not a safe space for farming. A Hurricane Mako is specifically kitted for missions, and will not survive a normal PvP encounter.
Undeniably, what the missions help create is ambient activity in the Omicron Delta system, which attracts people to log in and interact (in our case, either more Core ships joining to farm or hostile players wanting to intercept). The increased convenience has been a big benefit for everyone. My only comparison to other NPC missions has been that anti-Cruiser missions elsewhere are more profitable if players wanted to do them for the sake of profit. It's not really a complaint, just me pointing out a single difference when viewed through a particular mindset.
(06-21-2018, 10:34 PM)Sombra Hookier Wrote: Long story short, Core has a unique standing in this. On one hand, BS remains are currently traded at less than ten millions per unit - thanks to Hurricanes, by the way; while Core| specifically said they won't sell BS remains for just 10 millions per unit in one of the latest posts. So if you have a Marduk mission, 25k away from Yaren, have spawn 2-3 Marduks, which aren't a threat thanks to Hurricanes, you make multiple DOZENs of MILLIONS for having launched Hurricanes, without much threat. Omicron Delta is a tiny system compared to Cambridge, for example, which is twice as large. In Delta, it is not hard to escape from a fight by simply combat-docking as you have stuff in 30k distance - a distance battleships can easily overcome while dodging enemy bullets, by the way.
You said it yourself: People need remains for building cloaks. It should not be easy to pull that off. It should not happen in Delta at all, and super-especially not in a convenient way if you want to make money from it. The solution IS IN THE GAME. Go to Psi, at the Ravine. If you like a harder challenge, go to Major. Psi is, by the way, significantly easier. Talking from experience here.
So, yeah, I'm really pissed if I see the demand for making money EVEN MORE EASIER. Lyth said they have Capetown for convenience, and it was stupidly placed in a system that had the unique trait of being a system without base. Now it has Capetown and a Junker base. Don't get me wrong, I'm a fan of Capetown having returned after vanishing without a word, together with Zeta. But why it's not actually used to stage raids into the Nomad territory is beyond me. It's assbackwards.
I'm just going to say we're not really farming for the money. There's a reason why historically we've aimed to beat the prices of other remains sellers (before Core|, people used to sell BS remains for 25 million). The money is a nice perk, but mainly we just want to offer the service and roleplay and activity that comes along with it. We've got enough sci-data we could sell right now to have us set for life if we wanted to. Although, given a recent project we have started, I'm inclined to keep our prices as is, so that we can generate indies and activity in Omicron Delta. Coming soon™.
I'll also say that you're cherrypicking on your point about system sizes. A decreased system size not only means that friendly bases are closer, but hostile bases are too. The mission zones I believe are setup in a way so that you risk being close to enemy bases, and enemy players undocking and ambushing your operation as a result.
Before the Rabisu changes, we generally avoided Iota because that thing was just not enjoyable to fight. Recently, we've made a couple incursions, but haven't had people logging in. We've had more success with Nomad pvp encounters in Omicron Delta, the same system where these missions take place. Hmmmm...
Conclusively: don't get upset at us for farming 'risk free' when the fault lies in other playbases for not being that risk. I assure you, The Core already provides a risk for those who farm. We've had people interrupt our operations in the past, with both successes and failures. To quote yourself, the solution to your issues lies in game.
Whether or not adding anti-Nomad missions to Delta was a good thing or not was something I had debated recently. In conclusion, I have seen a noticable difference in activity generation since they were added, and can only feel like they were a positive addition. HOWEVER, they are not without their faults. Most notably, how missions involving Nomad Cruisers are just a complete and utter waste of time and seriously need to go. And furthermore, I think more missions should be taken in Delta, but take place in the surrounding systems (Kappa, Minor, Rho etc).