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+--- Thread: Black and White, Alliances (/showthread.php?tid=17945)
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Black and White, Alliances - Kambei - 03-17-2009
The biggest profit of Hackers from being in aliance with outcasts is.... well...... being in some aliance.
Everybody in Liberty and Bretonia is in OC aliance and only who not are xenos and gaians and since there is nothing shared with gaians except ocasional unwanted radio contact in Leeds, only choice of hackers are again... outcasts.
Stay alone or even worst be lone sairish friend in region is for hackers equivalent to suicide.
Black and White, Alliances - Blodo - 03-17-2009
Heh frankly diplomacy in Sirius doesn't need to be "if we're not allied, we're hostile". Many of these relationships could be moved to neutrality with relative ease, based on the amount of contact these factions have with each other.
- For example the Hessians have no contact whatsoever with the Outcasts... why are they allied, when they could be neutral? It's not like they exchange weaponry or anything, the Hessians hate cardamine as well. So that relationship could be moved from friendly to neutral to reflect that status.
- Mollys likely couldn't care less about the Outcasts. The Outcasts don't help them in the Omegas against Corsairs, the Outcasts actually support the Bretonian regime which the Mollys don't. The Mollys don't take cardamine either, and likely never will. Why are the Mollys allied to Outcasts when they could be neutral?
- Rogues take cardamine, have dealings with the Outcasts, etc. etc. yes. But they are also not centralised. That means that one band of Rogues could have good dealings with Outcasts while another could have good ones with Corsairs (all basing on what they decide to smuggle in - if anything at all). Conclusion? Rogues should be definitely neutral to both Outcasts and Corsairs.
- The Order is a faction that is dedicated to saving the Sirius sector from the Nomad onslaught. They are mostly defected naval personnel who never lost their true loyalties, but know they can't fight against the alien threat in their respective militaries. They are not pirates, nor terrorists and are a completely lawful faction. Why are they dealing with the worst cutthroats and pirates in Sirius at all? The Order aren't gaining anything in this, they're giving away their technology to a group that has "control of Sirius" placed very high in their list of goals. It makes no sense whatsoever that that relationship continues to exist.
- Gaians are environmentalists and political terrorists. Once again, what in gods name are they doing supporting the Corsairs? I can understand doing it indirectly through supporting Kusari, but lose the open alliance with Corsairs then and move them to neutral or something.
The rest of the relationships make much more sense than these ones. If a faction isn't allied to another faction, it doesn't mean it is hostile. There is something like "not taking a side" in the world, and to those factions listed above neither the Outcasts nor the Corsairs have anything to offer.
Black and White, Alliances - Bjorn - 03-17-2009
I agree with Blodo on this as stated in few earlier threads.
I would also add that hostilities between Mollies and Gaians are rahter unsupported and unlogical. Actually only logic behind it is Gaian alliance with Corsairs that shouldnt be there in first place.
Black and White, Alliances - Dab - 03-17-2009
' Wrote:tbh - Hessians should shoot any outcast on sight for their relations with nomads.The OC - Nomad relations aren't widespread or public. Furthermore, the OC have been distancing themselves rather forcefully regarding the Nomads. They don't shoot them, they don't hate them, but they also don't allow Nomads anywhere near Malta, nor allow them to shoot their allies.
On the OC - GC alliance, its perfectly fine and reasonable. And I say that both from an OC and a GC position. GC doesn't dislike anything about OC except the use of slaves. Meanwhile they get military assistance, Cardi, etc.
OC - Hessian alliance.. I think alliance is a step too far. They wouldn't be enemies, but not allied either. I'd put that relationship in a 'slightly friendly' category. Both major enemies of the 'sairs, they wouldn't waste time shooting each other. Furthermore, OC don't spread much Cardi to Rheinland. Junkers take it in there occasionally, but the OC leave Rheinland alone for the most part. And I don't think Hessians would care about them spreading it, as long as they aren't spreading it inside Rheinland.
OC - Molly alliance, needs taken out more than any other.. Outcasts have an agreement with the BAF. While they have an alliance with Mollys.. Major conflict of interest there, and has put the OC in some political corners recently. Mollies don't get anything from the Outcasts, and the only thing the Outcasts would get is some backup when operating in Bretonia.. But the Outcasts don't operate in Bretonia anyway, so no one gets anything from this. There are reasons against this alliance, and no reasons for it.. Now, as an OC, I'd love to keep this alliance going, but from a practical standpoint of a player, there is no reason for it..
Corsair - Gaian alliance, much the same as the Molly - OC alliance.. Gaians don't get anything from the Corsairs, and the Corsairs get nothing from the Gaians. Gaians don't help smuggle in Artifacts. Furthermore, Gaians would be disgusted by the cannibalistic story of Corsairs from the past, regardless of the fact that the Corsairs aren't cannibals except for that one time where it was necessary. On top of that, Gaians are concerned with the preservation of nature, while the Corsairs couldn't care less about it. I don't think Gaians would like the Corsairs any more than the Outcasts. They'd either be neutral to both or hostile to both. An alliance with anyone makes no sense here. However, regarding Mollys, I think Gaian's hostility is perfectly legitimate. Mollys are concerned with mining the gold and refining it from Dublin.. To Gaians, this is a desecration of nature. They are mining the naturally-formed asteroids in Dublin. Mollys would be just as big an enemy as BAF.
OC - Hacker alliance, perfectly legit. See GC.
OC - Rogue alliance, I believe they'd stay allied. They are common allies of Hackers, and the Rogues make a very good profit on Cardamine, as well as getting military assistance, capital ship support (Dessies), Infernos, etc. Rogues get quite a few things from the Outcasts that they wouldn't be able to get if they were neutral.
Corsair - FA alliance, I think that'd get bumped down to friendly. FA don't like the GC, BD, or OC. All for different reasons, and are allies of the Hogosha. But they also don't like the Corsairs. They are just more foreigners out ruining the economy of Kusari, and corrupting it. I know AFA already forbids any 'sairs from pirating in Kusari. FA don't get any support from the Corsairs, and aren't tied to the Artifact trade either, so they aren't getting anything out of them.
Corsair - Order alliance, never should've existed in the first place in my opinion.. There was no point to it. But as Mark said, such a big topic, it needs its own thread.
Black and White, Alliances - bluntpencil2001 - 03-17-2009
Oh, Outcast/Bretonian 'alliance' is too far.
Potential shady dealings on some levels, maybe. Alliance? Hell no.
Black and White, Alliances - Kuraine - 03-17-2009
Let's not forget that in (Disco) the background history, the Corsairs nuclear bombed the Molly home planet from orbit and left it a barren, cratered waste. That alone would be enough to drive the Gaians onto the side of the Mollys and start a hate-fuelled campaign of violence against all and any Corsairs who enter Bretonia.
Black and White, Alliances - Bjorn - 03-17-2009
Dab, rogues and mollies got their own dessie and only inferno now is fighter one, since cap infernos changed into Pulse turrets.
Also about Gaian agenda. I really doubt asteroid mining is the problem, expecially since gold refining is actually very clean process (yes, i know it is), they have more problem with killing of native flora and fauna of planets in order to speed terraform it (ergo, agressively).
BAF-OC arent in alliance, but they have too much dealings with BAF to stay allied to mollies for any reason. Fight against corsairs is not done on right side of Sirius to be allies. Actually again, Hessians make more sense, expecially now that we have bases in bordering systems (molly base is in cambridge, hessian base is in omega 5)
All in all... it needs reform.
Black and White, Alliances - farmerman - 03-17-2009
For the Gaian-Corsair alliance, there's more to actually support something now as the Gaians are one of the buyers of artifacts. Which is kind of an interesting and defendable thought given their vast support and background on Cambridge. Though I'm not sure on their connections with the Hogosha.
The Corsair-Molly explosion thing is actually a really big thing I had forgotten about, which makes things even more confusing.
Black and White, Alliances - Dab - 03-17-2009
Don't know if this was directed at me or not, but I never said Bretonia and Outcasts have an alliance.. Just an agreement.
And about the Inferno.. Thats exactly what I'm talking about Bjorn. Rogues could get Infernos from the OC if they needed them. Mollys could too, and thats about the only thing they would get out of the alliance, hence why I think the OC-Molly alliance needs taken out.
Black and White, Alliances - Friday - 03-17-2009
The GMG show how alliances can change, both in Vanilla and in Disco.
In Vanilla, the GMG used to be the ones running artifacts for the Corsairs, until the Hogosha cut them out (hence both are now GMG enemies).
Samura used to be the main GMG partner until they switched to Kishiro - now the GMG wants to stab Samura in the back (and I am sure the feeling is mutual!). Both GMG and Samura encourage the use of third parties against each other (Blood Dragons vs. Hogosha).
As for Discovery? Well the GMG did hammer out a formal neutrality with the Hessians. If anything the Hessians have more in common with the GMG - hostility towards the Corsairs, and a desire to see regime change within Rhineland.
As for the Gaians - now they have their own gunship they might think about cutting ties with the Corsairs, and focus on Gallia.
Infocards state that Gallic terraforming technology is not as good as the rest of Sirius - so the Gaians have a chance of stopping the 'evil' of terraforming before it has a chance to take root.
OR the Gaians could 'go global' - and exploit the Corsair alliance to strike at OSC and terraforming operations in Okinawa and Nagano...