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+---- Thread: Cap Missile Balance (/showthread.php?tid=18143)
Cap Missile Balance - El Nino - 03-21-2009
In all humanly mesurable ways Bret missiles are better. 110 vs 170 damage is just to much to ignore...
Cap Missile Balance - mjolnir - 03-21-2009
I like calculations... so I did the simplest one:
Bret dessie fires a missile and "does" 170k damage, and has 750k energy left
Kusari dessie fires a missile, "does" 110k damage.. and has 500k energy left
Now bret one "did" 54% more damage and has 50% more energy. Who had the firepower advantage again?
Cap Missile Balance - bluntpencil2001 - 03-21-2009
Can both missiles insta-kill a fighter?
This has to be taken into consideration, as despite claims, they can both hit fighters if aimed reasonably well.
Cap Missile Balance - mjolnir - 03-21-2009
' Wrote:Can both missiles insta-kill a fighter?
This has to be taken into consideration, as despite claims, they can both hit fighters if aimed reasonably well.
We tried this hard with Blodo, and we couldn't really do that unless you ram into the fighter. If you do that both can insta-kill it yes. Which is why both use same ammount of the cruiser powerplants to fire => they can both fire them as often.
Frankly if I want to insta-kill a fighter, it's much easier to do that with a Mortar or Razor who have higher speed, much better efficiency and don't need you to ram the fighter.
Cap Missile Balance - McNeo - 03-21-2009
Any fighter that is hit by a cruiser or battleship missile deserves what's coming to him, considering the huge amount of time it takes for the missile motors to kick in.
That said, you need two missiles to instakill a fighter. I dont know how it works exactly, but firing two basic missiles from the Praefect against NPC patrols (which fly in a straight line) results in instant death for that entire wing of NPC's, whereas one missile only does not.
At the end of the day, the difference in missiles isn't that much in real combat situations. The Bretonian destroyer already wins against the Kusari destroyer, even with its "underpowered" missiles. Is it really THAT much of a handicap? Though, maybe the missiles that do more damage should be resistant to being CD'd directly (as in, taking 2 CD's to explode) while the less damaging missiles could be intercepted by only on CD? I dunno, just came to mind spontaneously, probably a bad idea.
That said, Im going to be conservative again and stick to basic missiles. Always the best ones, in my opinion.
Cap Missile Balance - Dab - 03-21-2009
' Wrote:Using same energy percentage is a bad idea... but actually it's not so bad idea... uhh.Its a bad idea on its own. Its not so bad if you also factor in the damage-to-energy ratio.
Yes they are, how is that a BIG problem. If I go 1vs1 with any of those ships. Those with high damaging missiles have and advantage. Since 110k damage vs 170k quite some. Yet when you have 30% left of small cruiser powerplant you can almost not fire a razor. With the big powerplant you can fire tons of things.
' Wrote:So you do more damage and can fire more after that.As I said, fluctuation is fine. I don't expect identical damage-to-energy ratios when comparing a light and heavy missile, but the difference we have here is HUGE. The ratios should be a bit closer than what they are now. Take a look at the chart at the end of my post.
If we turn it around, the "heavier" missiles should according to you do more damage at same efficiency as the lighter ones, what do the light ones have as an advantage then? The heavy ones are simply better.
Remember 4.84, there you had basic missile turret doing 3.5k damage and using some 40k energy, then you had dragonfly that did 5k damage for 90k energy => extremely worse efficiency. Now what did people mount if they could? Dragonfly, cause more "concentrated" damage is better and saves you slots.
' Wrote:I like calculations... so I did the simplest one:
Bret dessie fires a missile and "does" 170k damage, and has 750k energy left
Kusari dessie fires a missile, "does" 110k damage.. and has 500k energy left
Now bret one "did" 54% more damage and has 50% more energy. Who had the firepower advantage again?
Another simple calculation;
Kusari Dessie "does" 110k damage, uses 170k energy.
Bretonia Dessie "does" 170k damage, uses 270k energy.
Bret one "did" 54% more damage and used 58% more energy to do it. Thats what takes away the firepower advantage when it gets less damage per unit of energy. I've said this six times, and you've ignored it six times.
And Blunt, yes, they both insta-kill a fighter if it's shield is down. However, the Kusari Dessie's missile turret has a better speed and turning, making it much more likely to hit its target than the Bretonian Dessie. That should be factored into its damage-to-energy ratio as well. Just like a much slower missile should get a little bump in damage, as shown in the Hessien and Rh missiles in the chart below.
Easier to read (correctly spaced) notepad file: [attachmentid=5568]
Quote:GB Power Cores:
Liberty (400K/40K)
Rheinland (600K/60K)
Kusari (400K/40K)
Kusari Explorer (600K/60K)
Bretonia (600K/60K)
Order (600K/60K)
Basic (---/--)
GRN (500K/50K)
Council (500K/50K)
Dragon (600K/60K)
Dest Power Cores:
Liberty (1,400K/95K)
Rheinland (2,250K/120K)
Kusari (1,400K/95K)
Bretonia (2,250K/120K)
Order (1,800K/110K)
Basic (----/---)
GRN (2,250K/120K)
Council (2,250K/120K)
Hessian (2,250K/120K)
CURRENT:
GB:
Liberty, Rheinland, Kusari, Bretonia, Order, Basic, GRN, Council, BDs
damage: 7000 8200 6600 8500 7500 6400 7800 7200 9000
energy: 200k 250k 170k 270k 210k 200k 230k 200k 300k
range: 1531 1531 1487 1531 1531 1531 1531 1531
refire: 0.33 0,33 0.33 0.33 0.33 0.33 0.33 0.33 0.33
speed: 145 145 145 145 145 145 145 145 145
efficiency: 3.5 3.28 3.88 3.148 3.57 3.2 3.39 3.6 3
Cruiser missiles:
Liberty, Rhienland, Kusari, Bretonia, Hessian, Order, Basic, GRN, COuncil
damage: 130 180 110 170 185 160 110 175 140
energy: 1000 1600 900 1500 1700 1350 1000 1600 1200
seeker range: 5500 5000 6000 5500 5000 5700 5500 5500 5500
refire: 0.1 0.1 0.1 0.1 0.1 0.1 0.1 0.1 0.1
speed: 115 105 125 115 105 115 115 105 115
efficiency: 13.00 11.25 12.22 11.33 10.88 11.85 11.00 10.94 11.67
turning: 0.4 0.35 0.45 0.4 0.35 0.4 0.4
NEW:
GB:
Liberty, Rheinland, Kusari, Bretonia, Order, Basic, GRN, Council, BDs
damage: 6650 8400 6250 8660 8070 6500 7800 7700 9400
energy: 190k 255k 170k 260k 230k 200k 230k 220k 290k
range: 1531 1594 1487 1564 1531 1531 1531 1516 ????
refire: 0.33 0,33 0.33 0.33 0.33 0.33 0.33 0.33 0.33
speed: 145 145 145 145 145 145 145 145 145
efficiency: 3.5 3.29 3.68 3.33 3.51 3.25 3.39 3.5 3.24
Cruiser missiles:
Liberty, Rhienland, Kusari, Bretonia, Hessian, Order, Basic, GRN, COuncil
damage: 116k 185k 105k 165k 190k 141k 112k 178k 154k
energy: 1000k 1600k 900k 1500k 1650k 1250k 1000k 1600k 1400k
seeker range: 5500 5000 6000 5500 5000 5700 5500 5500 5500
refire: 0.1 0.1 0.1 0.1 0.1 0.1 0.1 0.1 0.1
speed: 115 105 125 115 105 115 115 105 115
efficiency: 11.60 11.55 11.70 11.03 11.52 11.30 11.20 11.125 11.00
turning: 0.4 0.35 0.45 0.4 0.35 0.4 0.4 ?.? ?.?
Damage, energy, efficiency, and range were considered in the balancing of the Gunboat missiles.
Damage, energy, seeker range, speed, efficiency, and turning were considered in the balancing of the Destroyer/Cruiser missiles.
Cap Missile Balance - mjolnir - 03-21-2009
' Wrote:Though, maybe the missiles that do more damage should be resistant to being CD'd directly (as in, taking 2 CD's to explode) while the less damaging missiles could be intercepted by only on CD? .
Bret dessie fires a missile and "does" 170k damage, and has 750k energy left
Kusari dessie fires a missile, "does" 110k damage.. and has 500k energy left
' Wrote:Another simple calculation;
Kusari Dessie "does" 110k damage, uses 170k energy.
Bretonia Dessie "does" 170k damage, uses 270k energy.
Bret one "did" 54% more damage and used 58% more energy to do it. Thats what takes away the firepower advantage when it gets less damage per unit of energy. I've said this six times, and you've ignored it six times.
[color=#FF0000]After they are fired, bret dessie did MORE damage and has MORE energy left. Why is it worse?
=> The kusari dessie can say "you used your energy 4% less efficiently that me" ... yes but you'r dead and I'm not:yahoo:
I'll check the values you came with.
Cap Missile Balance - mjolnir - 03-21-2009
<= is deeply shocked....
as the numbers are fine, I'll change a few things here and there (for example council gb missiles). But generally they are fine.
On second look you just flattened out the efficiency numbers, but still I'm surprised.
Another thing discussed today with the rest of the developers team was changing the top speed of BS and Cruiser missiles, but keep then as slow or even slower to reach it. Idea was to make them a bit better on long range fights (over 2k) against bs mostly.
What do people think?
Cap Missile Balance - Dab - 03-22-2009
Do you mean faster speed, but slower turn rate? Wasn't completely clear to me.
If thats what you mean, I don't see much a problem with it. The only thing I do see that could be problematic is that making it any more than 180 means a fighter wouldn't be able to go after it and destroy the missile before it hits the BS/Dest its defending.. It'd be best if we kept it to a speed where fighters could realistically defend its team's cap by taking out missiles heading towards it.
Cap Missile Balance - chopper - 03-22-2009
I just want to respond to "Salamanca vs Kraken bitching" as I was directly involved in rebalancing of all guns.
You want Salamanca to use exactly the same % of Titan's energy as Kraken does to a Sabre?
Ok, then I want 700 speed and higher damage on Salamanca.
And I'd also like Sabre's turning+agility on a Titan.
And one more gun,please? Thanks.
You have no idea how funny it looks from my perspective.
Kraken is the best factionized gun in game. Was and still is. Stop crying.
As for missiles. Compare energy efficiency of Dragonfly GB missiles to, say, Kusari GB missiles in 4.84.
And guess which ones were more popular?
Yep.
I rest my case.