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+--- Thread: Rules Clarification Needed (/showthread.php?tid=19117)
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Rules Clarification Needed - Jinx - 04-11-2009
@del:
cause i remember it was defined as a transport - some time ago in the dev forum. - its mainly a transport, not a gunboat ... isn t it?
we don t call the shire a cruiser, only cause it has a similar damage output with 12 guns like an order recon cruiser either.
Rules Clarification Needed - Reverend Del - 04-11-2009
Those 12 guns are transport guns not cruiser guns. It's armour is also that of a high end transport. Now the Salvager has the armour of a good Gb and six GB turrets, the only thing that points to it being a transport is it's hold.
For the Shire and C-Trans the only thing that suggests it could be anything other than a transport is those 12 turrets.
Rules Clarification Needed - Jinx - 04-11-2009
alright then...
officially define them a gunboat then if you think their primary role is that of a gunboat. - mind, i think they also got transport shields. - so it stands
- GB turrets, GB powerplant, GB armour
vs.
- transport cargohold, transport shields, miner/transport plugin on it
and thats what it is - a hybrid. - if its really that vexing to fuss over it, maybe we can leave it to the .:J:. to define it? they re the official junkers faction, aren t they?
Rules Clarification Needed - Reverend Del - 04-11-2009
That's what I'm trying to figure out. Best solution is to hear what Junkers use them for. And then base classification from there. I'm not arguing from an Admin perspective, I'm simply wondering as it's kinda important in the scheme of whether or not I can shoot one up in a cruiser or above. Not that many of my chars interact with Junkers on that level in ships that big.
Rules Clarification Needed - Agmen of Eladesor - 04-11-2009
You give my Shire a CM dropper, and I might consider it to be something more than a heavily armored transport. But since it's still restricted to Transport Turret Guns, it's still nothing more than a heavily armored transport. I know I'm being redundant with that, but...
Having flown the thing now for several million miles and having had enough encounters in it...
NPC's aren't a problem in any way, shape, or form. They just ... die. The only issue is them ramming and then flipping the Shire end over end, which it does quite nicely. Then there's the trade lane docking issue, but that's with most large cap ships. (Like I ran into with the ADV train before.) Against players - a light or heavy fighter may cause some damage to me, but it's GOING to die if it's by itself. Bombers are problematic - I've both won and lost against single bomber pirates. Gunboats are ship dependant. Against some of them, the Shire can hold it's own, but still tends to come out on the losing side due to manueverabilitiy issues.
Honestly, if there was a convoy of Shires - 3 or 4 of them - they could probably take out most bands of pirates that normally operate. Two gunboats would be in a world of hurt.
Rules Clarification Needed - Benjamin - 04-11-2009
Salvager classification:
You give a multipurpose ship to the junkers, guess what happens? A lot of people traded their IMG gunboats for Salvagers, and a lot of people traded their Pirate Trains in for Salvagers. We do a lot of trading, and a little bit of fighting. The salvager is often out trading, but if we're in a fight, it's more than likely a salvager will be there too.
I veer towards transport personally though - it's the size of a transport, and it looks like one more or less.
But, it's definitely a hybrid, and it's definitely being used as such.
As for jinx's post about liner classification on the page before: Could your argument not also be applied to Yachts? Yeah they're inefficient, but that's a mechanics question rather than an RP issue. The liner classification seems very much like an RP distinction.
Rules Clarification Needed - tazuras - 04-11-2009
In this whole Salvager being a Transport or GB discussion I think you've missed at least one thing and that is maneuverability. It is less maneuverable than every GB other than the rogue gunboat, which apparently is not maneuverable at all... It is as maneuverable as a liberty cruiser in pretty much every way.
Also how big the hitbox is, dont know if that was brought up, and I really have no idea either.
Rules Clarification Needed - pieguy259 - 04-12-2009
A note on the Geisha: The Kishiro ID classes it as a Liner.
Rules Clarification Needed - Rudo - 04-12-2009
Ah, this is why Del was asking me about it earlier.
Ben said it best: it's a hybrid ship and it sees a variety of uses as a result. If just left to armor, it's tougher than pretty much any GB -- most transports are. But it's also enormous compared to gunboats and uses the now-heavily scaled back transport shields.
As I told del, give it a CD and the 150 thrust speed of gunboats and maybe it'd lean toward the gunboat side of the scale. As it is, a GB will run rings around it and can leave a fight against a lone Salvager at will if things go pear-shaped. A lot of large ship combat is based in running around in EK and smashing each other on firing passes. The Salvager is at a marked disadvantage due to its inability to stop the drifting of an opponent.
Also factor in the surprisingly shorter range of gunboat turrets as compared to transport guns, and the fact that most transports that are meant to be able to hold their own in a fight often have as many as 8 to over 10 turrets that can fire in a single direction. Say your typical gunboat turret has 3000 DPS, and your average Transport turret does 1800, at a greater range. (We'll leave out pulse guns, razors and missiles for the time being despite most Salvager captains leaning toward having a couple of these onboard.)
Your salvager will, barring an opponent sitting in those very minute cones at 10 and 2 o'clock where all six turrets can fire on a target, fire a maximum of five guns. Say a Liberty Rogue in a Pirate Transport and a Salvager come to blows over some nice floating cardamine that was dumped in space by the LPI and they didn't bother to tractor or destroy it. The Pirate Transport has 8 guns that fire forward, the Salvager has five.
8*1800=14400
5*3000=15000
The Salvager also has a slight edge on regens, power supply (the transport shield drain is only an inconvenience as opposed to crippling as it is on the PTrans) and armor. The PTrans has a CD and can engine kill around the Salvager with impunity as the Salvager can't limit the transport's mobility in turn.
The end result? The fight ends up much, much closer than one would expect.