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+---- Thread: Liberty gunboat (/showthread.php?tid=73648)
Liberty gunboat - CommanderX - 01-28-2012
[NG]-Assault1
Greetings, once 4:86 mod started, I have been doing research, most of tham considering navy gunboat, and checking it is efectiveness in action, and I also checked rouge gunboat too.
In 4:86 gunboat shield was nerfed and is now less efective again cruizers, in exchange it got turret zoom with increased it is efectiveness again subcrafts like fighters/bombers.
Gunboat can damage those fighters/bombers best what attack him directly and are a bit less efective to cover other vessels, still, they can hurt bombers/fighters.
Here are navy gunboat turret arks:
In back from the left and right side it shot 6 turrets
Directly from side it shot 5 turrets
Foward and foward side it shot 5 turrets ( in 4:85 it could shot 7 turrets foward/side )
However between foward and side, there are points where it shot just 4 and 3 turrets.
If you shot up and up/back, it will shot 5 turrets
However between foward and up, there are points where it shot 4 turrets.
if you shot back/down, it will shot 5 turrets
However if you shot directly down, it will shot 3/4 turrets ( 1 turret cannot turn directly down, so it will turn left/right radomly until it will be in right position to shot ).
The weakest spot is foward/down
If you go from foward into down of your gunboat, it will stop shoting 5 and start shoting 3 turrets,
if you continue moving down, it will shot just 1
little more down it will shot 2 until you get fully down where it shot 3/4
Now than, here are my analises and experience:
If you will use turret stering and turret zoom, with side and back fire and evasion you are able to fight and hurt 3/4 subcraft from your back, again bombers it is more risky since they can break your shield with lucky shot but not without getting hurt.
Again enemy gunboat, navy gunboat is also efective with turret stering thanks to turret zoom.
Still, because of turret ark nerf ( in 4:85 it could shot more turrets around ), navy gunboat is all time full of energy, you can use this energy to shot missile or FG, but FG is not too usefull in turret stering.
Even if navy gunboat is good again fighters/bombers and not bad again gunboats, it is bad again cruizers.
Curently cruizer have advantage over turret boats, gunboat need to use BR/pulse to be able to fight it form safe distance.
Using FG in turret stering is very hard, navy gunboat can use it on safe range to snipe enemy or try to turn it is ship to enemy and shot for extra damage, but it is very risky since if BS or cruizer will start ot fire on gunboat when he turn to him to shot FG, it will get heavy damage.
As for players who does not know how to use turret stering and turret zoom on navy gunboat, well, they are in big dissadvantage, since navy gunboat can not use engine kill to shot enemy with 7 turrets from foward/side how it could in 4:85.
When I will compare navy gunboat to for example HF gunboat what I happened to encounter often lately.
In 1 vs 1 duel using turret stering can give me chance to beat him, since most of HF gunboats I fought did not used turret stering, but in conecticut I once fought again player in hell fire gunboat what used turret stering and he overpowered me.
As heavy gunboats with high size but also high ahility Hell fire legion Heavy gunboats are better in fighting cruziers and BS than navy gunboats.
Also it took quite long for 2 assault gunboats to finish 1 HF gunboat on manhatan when 3 HF gunboats finished me very very fast in texas.
On the other side, HF gunboat is rather weak to defend again fighters and bombers in exchange for it is heavy fire power.
Rouge gunboat with turrets is able to defend again 3 subcrafts, I managed to fight off 3 corsair titans, but 4 or more is too much for it.
It can also fight off 2 bombers but more may be risky, all because it shot only 3 turrets back.
It is agility make it very efective to support and damage again enemy subcrafts and gunboats, but without BR/pulse set up it can not defend again Bretonia cruizers.
Final statement:
Navy gunboat turret ark nerf make it weaker again BS and cruizers and little again gunboats.
Thanks turret zoom navy gunboat is great to defend again fighters/bombers.
FG is very hard to use in turret stering, but can be used for extra damage ( aiming cruizers and BS in turret sterng require skills and is risky if it is targeted ).
HF legion gunboat is good cap buster and strong in support, but weaker again fighters/bombers than navy gunboat.
Rouge gunboat is good for support and in evasion but weaker to defend again subcrafts than navy gunboat.
Liberty gunboat - Ursus - 01-28-2012
I agree that the side-mounted turrets should have full arc restored. Either that or the two turrets on the "wing" should be moved to below the wing, so that they can shoot down. Right now they all four shoot up, but none shoot down.
Liberty gunboat - CommanderX - 01-28-2012
Actualy I m not sure why those turrets on side of navy gunboat not turn 360, or it is because wings are in the way.
Liberty gunboat - Ursus - 01-28-2012
' Wrote:Actualy I m not sure why those turrets on side of navy gunboat not turn 360, or it is because wings are in the way.I checked the arc and the turrets stop moving well before it gets to the wing. However the guns keep firing even after the turrets stop moving. The bottom sweep of the arc from the rear is also very limited, and nothing to do with the wing.
Liberty gunboat - Switchback - 01-28-2012
The LN Gunboat had a nerf coming, its puny, and was overpowered.
Bo-ho, you can't be called a "GB God" anymore because you don't fly the most OP gunboat in the mod.
Deal with it.
Liberty gunboat - Blighter - 01-29-2012
The Liberty Gunboat got the nerf to firing arcs because it was overpowered.
In .85 it was/had:
A) Small.
B) Very agile.
C) Had excellent firing arcs.
D) Had a Forward Gun.
E) Had 110k armor base.
F) Had a Medium Powerplant.
In .86 it is/has:
A) Still small.
B) Less agile but still agile.
C) Has firing arcs more in-line with other Gunboats.
D) Has the Forward Gun still.
E) Still has 110k armor base.
F) Still has the Medium Powerplant.
I'm going to do a raw comparison here in terms of stats between it and the Rogue Gunboat as well as the Rheinland Gunboat:
-Liberty GB
Small in size from all angles, smallest from front + rear.
110k armor.
350 NB/SB.
Medium powerplant.
1 FWG + 7 guns total.
On average 5 guns fire into any direction.
Guns do 750 damage at 2500 drain.
Max angular speed for reference: 0.6250
-Rogue GB
Small in size from all angles, smallest from front + rear.
95k armor.
350 NB/SB.
Light powerplant.
6 guns total.
6 guns fire front, 3 fire up / down / rear, up to 5 front + sideways, on average 4 sideways.
Guns do either 770 damage at 2750 drain (Saoirse), or 765 damage at 2730 drain (Rogue).
Max angular speed for reference: 0.6500
-Rheinland GB
Relatively large but narrow, smallest from front + rear, narrow and relat. small from top + bottom, huge from left + right.
135k armor.
400 NB/SB.
Heavy Powerplant.
1 FWG + 6 guns total.
6 guns fire front / rear, but last I checked you get 3 up + down + left + right. EDIT: I'm not sure about the up + down here, so take those with a grain of salt.
Guns do 820 damage at 3100 drain.
Max angular speed for reference: 0.5000
This is the current comparison. You see that in terms of armor and powerplant the Liberty GB is in the middle of both its arguably two "main" enemies. It is however by far smaller than the Rheinland GB, and only a little bit larger than the Rogue GB in length and height, while being almost as fast as the latter, and significantly faster than the Rheinland one. To top it off, unlike the other two, the Liberty GB gets still -very good- gun arcs, allowing it to bring ~5 guns to bear on average, where the Rogue and Rheinland GB are more limited in this area.
Here's pictures I just took to compare the Rogue to the Liberty GB.
http://i44.tinypic.com/2r52p.jpg
http://i40.tinypic.com/11975w8.jpg
http://i44.tinypic.com/sdh0cj.jpg
http://i42.tinypic.com/15zm4ah.jpg
Here is an additional size comparison of the Rogue GB to some other GBs for reference:
http://i.imgur.com/h5Y8i.jpg
As you can see, the difference between the Rogue and Liberty one isn't that huge at all. The Liberty GB wasn't overnerfed or made useless or anything, it was balanced so as not to remain one of the most overpowered GBs in Discovery. The guns may very well appear like they could turn further, as the model would allow it, but the arcs were limited in order to balance the ship. A similar treatment happened to the Outcast Tridente Gunship, which was able to fire a whole whopping EIGHT guns in some areas and six guns on average, where that ship as well has the guns mounted in areas where they look like thy could turn further, but can't. That's a balancing measure.
I'm aware that sometimes the Liberty GB can only fire 4 guns in some "blindspots", however there are GBs that have far worse "blindspots". The =CR= Hydra can only fire 3 guns up or down. Always. The RMGB can only fire 3 guns left or right. Always. The Liberty one still maintains superior gun coverage.
Regarding the anti-cap performance of Gunboats on a general level, the GB shield-nerf was a measure all across the board that affected all Gunboats not just against caps, but against -everything- else.
That Cruisers have an advantage over turret-boats is somewhat intentional, as the idea was that a Cruiser vs. 1 GB would usually always win, but a fight of 2 GBs vs. 1 Cruiser would be roughly even.
Lastly, that a player not using turret-sterring + turret-zoom is at a disadvantage when using not just the Liberty GB, but actually -any- GB, is a byproduct of ships being balanced around the turret-sterring + zoom features, as they're now an integral component of capital ship combat. They weren't before. The Liberty GB isn't the only one that underwent major changes as a result. So did the Hessian Heimdall GB, the Outcast Tridente, to an extent the Colonial Hydra and the then-underpowered Hacker Gunship or the Kusari Gunboat, to name examples.
Liberty gunboat - Ursus - 01-29-2012
honestly 5 guns on the side makes it a very good turret-steering platform
the fact that somebody can come up from below isn't much of a weakness, all it really does is make it a little more difficult to kill Explorer since it's weakness is above and behind
Liberty gunboat - Blighter - 01-29-2012
' Wrote:honestly 5 guns on the side makes it a very good turret-steering platform
the fact that somebody can come up from below isn't much of a weakness, all it really does is make it a little more difficult to kill Explorer since it's weakness is above and behind
Basically that, if you don't mind me quoting.
I'd like to add, the LibGB will hardly run out of power using its guns as A1 stated. That's not necessarily a bad thing given its layout. You'll keep shooting with "only" 5 guns for all eternity due to a lack of power-drain, but a GB like the Rogue one when it flies aggressive to bring all 6 guns to bear will run out of power very quickly using Soairses or Liberty Rogue guns. Similar case with the Hessian Heimdall. It gets guns that do 780 damage at 2900 drain and can fire 6 forward, but firing continuously will make it run out of power very, very fast, due to the light powerplant. You can consider the higher damage of the Rogue / Molly / Hessian shooters an advantage here, much as you can consider not running out of power fast an advantage of the Liberty Gunboat. It works both ways.
Liberty gunboat - ... kur nubėgo? - 01-29-2012
' Wrote:Not entirely on topic, but the guy is right. We should be avoiding the tendency to nerf everything bigger than a snub. In a few years we'll end up with a situation where one battleship can be defeated with a long range quad nova tactical bomber that a certain part of the community will lobby.
As far as you are concerned 4.86 made snubs a lot weaker against capitals than they were in 4.85
Liberty gunboat - Ntei - 01-30-2012
the blind zones are worst than you people think