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+--- Thread: Capital Ship Guidelines - Rules of engagement. (/showthread.php?tid=73899)
Capital Ship Guidelines - Rules of engagement. - Rmorph - 02-01-2012
' Wrote:I am woundering.
You run a Sair Faction, and claims to know the Sair Lore.
Then you must know of the low stockpile of ressurses the sairs have to build capital ships.
But here you make a post saying that all your members can get a Cap ship.
Cant you honestly see that it is wrong.
darn give them bombers and fighters and Gunboats.
Dont be a Capship spawning noob faction, good knows we have had our shares of those in Sair history the last '
several years.
Allso note that a capship need in the area of 3-700 crewmembers lets say a avg of 500 and you end up with 20 caps that is 10,000 crewmembers + the ground crew to maintance those ships roughly same numbers.
can you in all honestly say that Corsair nation can allocate 20,000+ Corsairs to maintain and keep your fleet flying.
when We need Fighter and bomber pilots.
i will eagerly await your answer.
/// the above is my meaning and not relatet to Benitez ///
OK lets do some math.
Lets say that Crete has only 3 million inhabitants that are ECG affiliated... thats only 1% of the pop of the USA and 0.05% the population of 21st century Earth.. but anyway.
Everyone on Crete is pretty much warrior or supports the military with their trade... so .. we have no shortage of military personnel.. literally millions and millions of crewmen for our ships.
This is a warrior culture like Ancient Sparta, only with equal equality and space age tech.. so between 60 and 90 % of all income goes on military spending.. i.e. they have a military spending budget in the 10 to 100s of billions per year. At least.
ECG has 20 members.
(Lets say) Each member has a capital ship, and a fighter, and a bomber.
Thats... 20 carriers (30 billion credits). 20 fighters. (400 million credits) 20 bombers (1 billion credits). 20 freighters.. 20 gunboats.. Whatever. we all max our accounts like the lolwuts we are..
100 ships.. I can see the other faction leaders just face-palming in despair, but I'm just going to an extreme for the sake of example..
Our military "purchase" budget is now around 50 billion credits on ships with life expectancies of say 20 -30 years...so lets call that an incremental cost of a few billion a year (We've had hundreds of years of ship building experience by the way and we have space age technology).
We also have the infrastructure to support 100 ships cos we have 3 million people.
Thats not so bad to be honest.
I think its reasonable to extrapolate that a faction with a population smaller than modern day Ireland (a space faring military nation by the way) could produce 100 ships, 20 of which are quite large.
The shortages you describe are what stops us putting 500 hundred capital ships in Gamma space, not a mere 20.
The clue here is that at some level we're bneing told that we should do "representation" of a corsair armada and not actually be one... and that we only need 1 cap ship and should pretend we have 20.
ECG doesn't need to do representation or pretend: We have the resources to give everyone in ECG a capital ship. So why not start considering how to maximize that element rather than just restrict it because it doesn't work so well with the 1 represents 100 mentality.
Lets describe a mother of all lolwut scenarios.. just for fun.
What if I personally went out and bought the OUTCAST 20 capital ships - a birthday present (We know they have them already... but lets pretend they don't and its only ECG that commits this horrendous crime of wanting to purchase and fly big ships).
Now our 20 caps have 20 caps to fight.
If the server could handle it that is a gameplay sdcenario I would LOVE to see. Who wouldnt?
Who wouldnt want to fly into a full fleet engagement of 40 capital ships and god knows how many support craft
And by doing that have we really broken Outcast or Corsair lore? Really?
I don't think so at all, and will disagree fervently with anyone who does.
We just dropped the "representation part" and now we are doing full fleet warfare instead of pretending it happens.
:
:
:
But lets come back down to reality: we have to limit our enthusiasm before it wrecks everyone elses enjoyment of the game.
Soo....
Now.. we introduce gaming rules that limit ship usage (This is the AHA! moment that people seem to have missed in my previous posts.. so I will try and be a little more specific:).
Only a max of 4 capital ships can fly at once. The others must be "in dry dock".
Only a max of 5 bombers can be in space at once.
Only a max of 8 fighters can be put in space at once.
The rest will do support.
This is assuming we get all 20 members online at once... you know what thats like..
Does that sound really so unreasonable?
America puts 2 carriers in the gulf when its oil is threatened. Why wouldn't we put 4 or 5 over our home planet? or its neighboring systems?
Is it unreasonable to assume that the ECG would field a handful of capital ships?
Is it unreasonable that a space-faring nation wouldn't have 15-20 capital ships spread across a star system?
Anyway.
I think ECG could even be 50 players and we will never exhaust this discussion or come to agreement: I don't think lore is threatened by a meatier approach to use of any type of ship..its just about making sure the gameplay and roleplay circumstances justify it.
I've said it before: We wont limit player enjoyment in the purchase of, equipping of or flying of, the ships they want to play.
We will just safeguard against them impacting other players when they do so..
ECG pilots will effectively take turns in the different ships.. a rotation of roles or something..
This will give huge variation in the ECG experience and that is a fantastic thing that every single faction on this server can only wish they could do for their players.
Yes that last part is a challenge :-)
Thanks for the post.
Rmorph.
Capital Ship Guidelines - Rules of engagement. - Enrico_B - 02-01-2012
Quote:Lets say that Crete has only 3 million inhabitants that are ECG affiliated... thats only 1% of the pop of the USA and 0.05% the population of 21st century Earth.. but anyway.
What is the USA i must have missed that history class.
yes 20 members with 5 ships each that is 100
I belive that Sails and TBH and Benitez have a tad bit more and more well trained members.
Only the 3 above mentioned OFFICIAL factions dont cap spawn.
the 3 above mentioned factiones can if all members log on at same time take up close to all slots on the server.
And they are respectet due the fact that they dont use caps.
Sails Pirate the fat miners and haulers in Omegas
TBH are agressive and makes sure that Corsairs are a offensive force that kick butt.
Benitez are known to be fair and full of honour and pissing Bretonians off, and to pirate the pants off miners in Leeds.
Do you even know how many years those factions have excistet and how many years they have RP`ed to gain their status.
I bet you dont know, Benitez startet in august 2007.
now you come and make yet another Capship spawning Faction with no respect of all the RP the old Corsair Factions have worked to gain.
Goodluck
/// the above is my meaning and not relatet to Benitez ///
Capital Ship Guidelines - Rules of engagement. - Rmorph - 02-01-2012
' Wrote:What is the USA i must have missed that history class.
yes 20 members with 5 ships each that is 100
I believe that Sails and TBH and Benitez have a tad bit more and more well trained members.
Only the 3 above mentioned OFFICIAL factions dont cap spawn.
the 3 above mentioned factiones can if all members log on at same time take up close to all slots on the server.
And they are respectet due the fact that they dont use caps.
Sails Pirate the fat miners and haulers in Omegas
TBH are agressive and makes sure that Corsairs are a offensive force that kick butt.
Benitez are known to be fair and full of honour and pissing Bretonians off, and to pirate the pants off miners in Leeds.
Do you even know how many years those factions have excistet and how many years they have RP`ed to gain their status.
I bet you dont know, Benitez startet in august 2007.
now you come and make yet another Capship spawning Faction with no respect of all the RP the old Corsair Factions have worked to gain.
Goodluck
/// the above is my meaning and not relatet to Benitez ///
Enrico,
Im sure in you enthusiasm to positively contribute to this thread you have missed some of what I'm saying, - especially the part oabout limiting both player respawning and cap ship usage.... so I'll repeat it.
The ECG wont come thundering into the system with 20 cap ships or even 10 or even 5.
We will match our enemy strength for strength.. This isn't done today, so frankly I hope we will lead the pack.
What you describe is not an ECG problem alone. Its a server problem that fair enough, ECG have contributed to.
It will change, as I' ve described above..
My honest opinion: Its not for you or me to tell people not to buy certain kinds of ships.
Theres a lot of that going on already and frankly i haven't seen it helping one bit.. just get a lot more ships outsdie of factions (and therefore beyong any level of control).
Until I see the admins declare a sweeping ban, I won't make one. I'm not that arrogant that I will reduce other peoples enjoyment of the game for my own view of how the game plays.
Personally I don't like too many cap ships cos I hate torpedoes up the rear-end of my Titan.
Regarding your views on the other factions:
I have stated previously and can only say again and hope that you read this:
The other factions have put a lot of time and effort into their playing and the whole game experience.
We are not going to trample on that. We respect that.
BUT
Lets face facts.
Today Corsair and Outcast and AI and you name it cap ships fly through the systems in as great a number as any other ship. This isn't an ECG problem . this is a "players want to fly caps" problem.
The fix to it is to make other ships a better experience, so that reducing the opportunities to fly cap ships in the ECG( which we will do because there will be too many to have in the air simultaneously.), doesn't diminish the experience of other players.
:
:
:
I get that this is a subject you care deeply for, and that you have been annoyed by how it has gone before.
ECG will address ship balance issues and the Cap ship experience for other players.
Ive stated that very clearly, and described how it will be done - so I'm a bit surprised to be posting this again.. but its worth repeating :-)
ECG will not stop players from buying cap ships and enjoying them.
ECG will not ask them to go elsewhere (Outcast space? Liberty?) - We won't outsource this problem - we will instead resolve it by developing more immersive gameplay for other ships.
ECG will not spam ships or overuse caps, as has been the story so far.
Hence the rules above.
IF that isn't clear enough please contact me over PM and I'll be happy to clarify.
Cheers,
Rmorph.
Capital Ship Guidelines - Rules of engagement. - Thyrzul - 02-01-2012
I think what others try to say is that enjoying cap ships is okay in-game, but will not go along with Corsair RP. And in my opinion in this case the difference between in-game and in-RP is the most important. You can fly a fleet of Corsair caps, but then don't pretend to be roleplaying a wealthy group of common Corsairs, while thousands starve to death on the surface of Crete because of food shortages.*
On an other note...
' Wrote:ECG will not stop players from buying cap ships and enjoying them.
' Wrote:"players want to fly caps"
' Wrote:ECG will not spam ships or overuse caps, as has been the story so far.I see a bit of logic leading to contradiction here, could you please explain this to me?
Just a curious tresspasser...
*(This may be a bit inaccurate as I don't rp a Corsair myself, but according to members of the three official Corsair factions, I assume this is the case. Official members, correct me if I'm wrong.)
Capital Ship Guidelines - Rules of engagement. - Rmorph - 02-02-2012
' Wrote:I think what others try to say is that enjoying cap ships is okay in-game, but will not go along with Corsair RP. And in my opinion in this case the difference between in-game and in-RP is the most important. You can fly a fleet of Corsair caps, but then don't pretend to be roleplaying a wealthy group of common Corsairs, while thousands starve to death on the surface of Crete because of food shortages.*
On an other note...
I see a bit of logic leading to contradiction here, could you please explain this to me?
Just a curious tresspasser...
*(This may be a bit inaccurate as I don't rp a Corsair myself, but according to members of the three official Corsair factions, I assume this is the case. Official members, correct me if I'm wrong.)
No worries. Let me elaborate a little with some examples:
Option 1:
If we tell players they cant have cap ships in ECG, they will just buy cap ships out of ECG.
Therefore ECG loses the ability to quality control how those caps are played.
This is what has been happening to the other factions. they can lock down cap ships in their own crews all they like, but the sky has still darkened with Cap ships, entirely out of their control.
Option 2:
If we tell players that they cant be in ECG and own Cap ships outside of the ECG at the same time, then the newer more casual players (that we try to attract so we can keep them off the streets and teach them a little about how to enjoy RP) will leave cos cap ships is a really cool thing they want to do; They are casual gamers that are more into the space sim-part than the RP part, and frankly put up with the rp'ing of others so they can come to a populated server.
I wont comment on this further except to say you REALLY want these guys in a faction like ECG to maximize their RP interaction level, and have some level of control.
Regardnless. the same result occurs as in option 1: We end up with uncontrolled cap ships roaming around, instead of controlled cap ships taken out every now and then responsibly.
Now Option 3 is what I think is the best chance of working:
ECG doesnt stop anyone from buying cap ships.. in fact we try to pull in ALL the currently non-faction cap ships players as we can.
We then define how cap ships can be played.
When Cap ships can be played..
How ECG members take it in turns to play cap ships.
How we prevent cap ships from being used to spoil the gaming experience of others.
Thats what this code of conduct is designed to do:
ECG cannot stop the number of Cap ships from increasing in Corsair space - only a blanket ban can do that.
ECG can define rules of conduct, and then try and get as many cap ship pilots as it can to follow that code of conduct.
Does that make sense?
I'm trying to fix the problem you are all describing from another angle, simply because I do not have AND DO NOT WANT the responsibility of denying players the ships they want to play.
Now my personal opinion: Any faction that thinks it is fixing the problem by refusing players the enjoyment of flying the ships they enjoy is frankly pushing the problem out of their faction and into the open skies.
Sure, their faction will receive a boost in quality and become "purer" but the general level of enjoyment server-wide goes down a little as more and more unregulated, uncontrolled players hit the skies in their Legates.
Does this make sense?
I think this is an important issue and obviously a big contentious one.
If the admins decide to introduce new regulations restricting cap ships purchase.. I ll be very interested to see how it works. Thats the level that banning ship types needs to be: Anything else is either offloading the problem to somewhere else, or a purity law: a restriction that people will resent for the sake of not having to deal with a problem at its root source.
Capital Ship Guidelines - Rules of engagement. - Thyrzul - 02-02-2012
It's not the usage, but the existence of massive corsair cap fleets is what clashes with Corsair roleplay. If you want to teach new players to RP properly, then the very first thing is trying to set up a proper RP background/environment, in which the new ones can learn to RP. The Corsair Nation has an already existing RP background, mostly developed from Vanilla storyline and by not one but three official factions. And it seems massive dreadnought fleets barely fit in this RP environment, for reasons stated earlier.
Most of the factions utilize option #1 because they want to keep the server a role playing server, and respresent the faction's forces and approach as close to their RP as possible. If this means restrictions of some ships, they will restrict them. It is up to players to decide if they are willing to play by faction loer and general roleplay, or stay out of factions just to fly the biggest ships in game.
Capital Ship Guidelines - Rules of engagement. - Rmorph - 02-02-2012
' Wrote:It's not the usage, but the existence of massive corsair cap fleets is what clashes with Corsair roleplay. If you want to teach new players to RP properly, then the very first thing is trying to set up a proper RP background/environment, in which the new ones can learn to RP. The Corsair Nation has an already existing RP background, mostly developed from Vanilla storyline and by not one but three official factions. And it seems massive dreadnought fleets barely fit in this RP environment, for reasons stated earlier.
Most of the factions utilize option #1 because they want to keep the server a role playing server, and respresent the faction's forces and approach as close to their RP as possible. If this means restrictions of some ships, they will restrict them. It is up to players to decide if they are willing to play by faction loer and general roleplay, or stay out of factions just to fly the biggest ships in game.
Currently there is no formal limit to cap ships in the systems... merely a head-in-sand approach by formal factions.
The skies are thus still full of unregulated caps. The skies will get filled with even more regulated caps as new players gain the credits.
Theres no a single player on this server that hasnt had a goal of owning a cap ship.
Thats the game.
Unless factions stop trying to ignore the problem and start dealing with it, we will always see cap ship abuse.
.
This is NOT - I repeat: NOT just an ECG problem.
Option1 ignores the problem and simply hopes those unaffiliated players will just go away.
THis is a rather silly notion. Has it worked so far? No.
Its just led to older players getting more and more disgusted with the "noobs" and defining more and more elistist rules about how noobs should play.
In my opinion the kids already in the playground need to know that the new kids want to play with the toys there as well... And will be even mor eenthusaitic bout it cos its a new experience for them..
Its fair enough that the older generation have had years to start thinknig of caps as "just another ship".
Thats not the case for the new players. Dont take away their joy just cos you think the toys they are playing with aren't as rp friendly.
Lets fidn a middle ground here.
Option 3 is about improving the players experience by meeting them halfway, not simply shutting a dorr in theri faces cos they are playing with toys we dont want them to.
Less of the role. More of the play,
Thanks for our insight on this.
Rmorph.
Capital Ship Guidelines - Rules of engagement. - Rmorph - 02-02-2012
doublepost deleted.
Capital Ship Guidelines - Rules of engagement. - Madvillain - 02-02-2012
why don't you make 3 shared accounts , put all ECG capships on there , problem solved,
inrp corsairs are not a big strong naval force,
they consist of small numbers fighting mostly in guerillia tactics
also if ECG members really wanna be flying caps so bad,
why dont pick out a role that suits that?
Gallic navy for instance , is a fine example of a role that involves a lot of capships , per example.
why screw the corsair lore? (that took years to evolve)
in my personal opinion corsair caps should be fully restricted.
the current state of things went way out of hand already.
Capital Ship Guidelines - Rules of engagement. - Madvillain - 02-02-2012
' Wrote:Theres no a single player on this server that hasnt had a goal of owning a cap ship.
Thats the game.
You are so so so wrong about that :nono:
To take myself as an example : I own zero capships.
edit: maybe This is more to their liking