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+--- Thread: Discovery Economy Reformation (/showthread.php?tid=37396)
Discovery Economy Reformation - NonSequitor - 04-04-2010
@hribek: Making missions more profitable or meaningful is an idea I suggested when I first started playing here. The inherent problem with that solution is that it would likely cause server instability - more players doing missions would send us all into the unhappy purgatory of Lagland. Imagine half of the server at a time doing missions for the significant payoff or the random codeweapon. Laggity- lag and cra****y-crash (Hey! I'm no potty-mouth!:huh:)
@Kal-el: Having more sell points for ore is a nifty idea. However, turning on all the ore fields would call for some serious pondering. Some fields would continue to be iffy, i.e. scrap metal fields.
Dynamic Economy: A fun thought, but, as I've said earlier, there are other options. I don't have a clue about coding, but I've got a hunch that reducing the price of ships and equipment by 30 - 50% might be easier to implement.
Discovery Economy Reformation - Blaze - 04-04-2010
' Wrote:@hribek: Making missions more profitable or meaningful is an idea I suggested when I first started playing here. The inherent problem with that solution is that it would likely cause server instability - more players doing missions would send us all into the unhappy purgatory of Lagland. Imagine half of the server at a time doing missions for the significant payoff or the random codeweapon. Laggity- lag and cra****y-crash (Hey! I'm no potty-mouth!:huh:)
Dynamic Economy: A fun thought, but, as I've said earlier, there are other options. I don't have a clue about coding, but I've got a hunch that reducing the price of ships and equipment by 30 - 50% might be easier to implement.
That is what I have been saying all along
/summon Mjolnir
Discovery Economy Reformation - Durandal - 04-04-2010
I don't need to bother reading the thread. Just make it easier, thank you kindly.
Discovery Economy Reformation - Saronsen - 04-04-2010
One of the previous posters mentioned the idea for making some ID's carry more of a commodity, and I remember this being mentioned before somewhere.
Synth Foods carrying 7500 units of Synth Paste instead of 5000 (example) thanks to the ID? That'd be good.
Ageira carrying Lane Parts at 2x cargo instead of 4x? That'd be good too.
Freighters receiving a 20%/40%? bonus to all sold goods? This would reduce the number of transports a whole lot.
Is there any way to make ID's affect cargo yet?
Discovery Economy Reformation - Exsiled_one - 04-04-2010
Basically yeah there is.
You can place double commodities. For example:
Ageira gate / lane parts are sold for 500 credits each.
And then there's ageira gate / lane parts that are sold for 100 credits each
but if you do not have the appropriate ID (Ageira ID) it simply says you have to be on friendlier terms to purchase the 100 credits commodity.
Simple huh?
I still dislike your stance about trading, but that's for another discussion
Discovery Economy Reformation - Dusty Lens - 04-04-2010
Thought I'd jump in.
Lots of ideas here.
First... When I spotted this thread I dismissed it for two reasons. The first was that he provided a rather strong number of trade runs and also because he missed a great many trade runs.
There are a substantial number of legitimate trade runs. The most lucrative are legitimate in fact. They're also not listed here. Though you can find just a few of them in my welcome aboard primer.
If smuggling has an advantage it's in the mindless ease of the sport. F2, read your book for 8 minutes, f3, f2, read your book for 6 minutes and so on. Furthermore many of the smuggling runs are so simple that there is almost no challenge in them. A good example for both is the slave-cardi and the slave-diamond runs. Both of which I have grievance with. The trips are almost entirely mindless f2-f3 through territory which is almost entirely unpatrolled by "hostile" groups or chiefly controlled by friendly parties. It's safer than trading and easier to boot.
People like easy.
The Deut-Organ run of legend didn't make the most money ever. It was just mindlessly simple. Hence the attraction.
So I wouldn't say that there aren't any legitimate trade runs. I would say that claim is inaccurate. I would say rather that the smuggling runs are far, far too simple and safe which swings the balance of favor.
Mining is hampered right now by mining ships just hitting cruise the second ANYTHING shows up at 14k. Screaming NO NO NO NO NO STOP STOP STOP I REPORT YOU STOP STOP STOP before you can get within 10k or dashing for a quickdock in Omega 7. Yes I know why you're so popular Kruger and Omega 7. IMG capfleets lollerskates. Thankfully some changes are coming to correct that.
Now, onto some points.
1) ID based trade = Can be exploited.
2) Ship based trade = Can be exploited.
3) Dynamic economies = Can be exploited.
The problems with those three systems being exploited is in that it's damn hard to measure because, for all intents and purposes, parking two ships next to one another which can perform various tricks isn't "cheating", it's just abusing rule mechanics.
Let me give some example examples of various systems and their issues. Food for thought.
A) Cheating at mining. (RUS)KOOPLAH (name is a coincidence) reads a guide on some forum about adjusting an ini file to adjust the number of rocks that are spawned at certain parameters. Suddenly he can mine 10000 iridium a second. Cannon has a tool in place to monitor this sort of thing and collects various names and observes to see if there are any new tricks being brought to the table he didn't think of. Two weeks later a lot of battleships suddenly vanish from around Crete and Malta and Igiss gets a lot of angry letters asking him why they can't login.
B) Slaver ID gets a sell bonus to slaves if they have a freighter, for example.
- I move 5000 slaves in a transport next to sale point. I then jettison slaves into space/some other gimmick. Friend then moves back and forth selling slaves in his freighter while I get the next load. In a world where people drop their cargo and intentionally suicide in order to exploit one way trade (I encourage you to give that a try, spring is here and the ban will give you some time to spend outdoors.) routes.
The above can't be monitored. As far as the game is concerned everything is "working". Any system which rewards people for using a certain type of ship needs to build that reward into a larger cost. Such as the overall transit. We see this in terms of freighters becoming extremely nasty combat ships with excellent cruise speed for example. The reward over normal transports is there. They make either lovely escort ships or an different measure of security over bulky cargo.
C) Payouts on missions. Already falls under A in a fashion. However I personally feel that missions should play a stronger role and would like to see them take the place of code hunting, which is a failure in every possible sense. However again there is a snag.... This is entirely possible, anyone of the dozens of people clamoring for "better" missions are more than capable of doing the work. Mission work falls very very shy of being glorious.
So if you want to see better missions... Stop posting about it and get over to starport and get your hands dirty.
D) Dynamic economies: Kinda possible in a way. I have some ideas for this that will work, though my ideas aren't really "dynamic" so much as "accumulative". A dynamic economy within disco is such an insane task that I honestly cannot begin to process how it could ever possibly work. There are roughly 4832948290482309482309842390843284903284902384923842390842903 stations in disco. Mostly because every faction needs to have 1 more than everyone else otherwise their wang will fall off.
Simply coding in a viable static economic system is such a cumbersome nightmare that there is only one person who has risen to the task and actually accomplished any work. Xoria. Mostly because he isn't a person at all but some kind of creature who feeds off of hope and defecates* inis. Even the most passionate champions of a "reformed" trade system have been unable to produce anything more tangible or functional than a wall of text.
Now taking those hundreds of lines of code and turning it into a dynamic system? Extremely unlikely. Games like EvE use extremely complex systems which were in place at the time of the game's inception as a cornerstone.
Could we do it?
Yeah.
Will it ever happen?
Not unless we get a team of dozens to work on the thing and troubleshoot the living hell out of it. Even then probably not.
E) Certain factions receiving a boost to cargo types.
So I sit down. I do the math. It turns out that moving commodity X to destination Y makes exactly 4 c/sec more than any other run. If I use ID zed I can then fit 2000 extra of that commodity into my hold.
Suddenly every trader on the server is that ID. Diamond run abounds. ID is nerfed. People scream about how Cannon is trying, and has been from the start, to oppress Ageira/ALG/Junkers (LOL scrap field making 50 million an hour DUSTY HATES JUNKERS [and then 3 factions vanish literally overnight.] olololol.)/etc/etc.
To conclude the trade system isn't perfect. But it is a pretty decent mechanism by which to generate fundage while at the same time moving players along their nice little tracks in order to give people who shoot and defend them something to do. I feel there are a lot of weak spots. It's good to point them out. I do not feel that the entire system is borked or needs some kind of massive overhaul. I do feel that the best way to tackle the weak spots is to point them out one by one rather than claiming that huge sweeping changes are required which results in pages of often ill conceived or mis-informed speculation on how things should be.
*Poop LOL.
Discovery Economy Reformation - Eppy - 04-04-2010
' Wrote:TL;DR
Dusty is, as usual, correct.
That said, HUMAN CARGO DOESN'T MAKE ENOUGH. FIX IIIIIT. (<- legitimate complaint, and more or less the only thing I care about)
Discovery Economy Reformation - Leo - 04-04-2010
' Wrote:1) ID based trade = Can be exploited.
2) Ship based trade = Can be exploited.
3) Dynamic economies = Can be exploited.
I'd like to touch on this.
1. I fail to see how this can be exploited. Yes, if you have the ID and you have it setup so that you get more ITEMS from using the ID, then yes, but if you have the ID and you use it to sell things for more at the base, I fail to see how it can be exploited. That, and why would someone want to drop the cargo for someone else, anyway. If they wanted to they could just use their own transport, sell it, and then give the money to whomever they wanted to. Correct me if I misunderstood.
You could do the same with mining, and I've SEEN it done. Transport sitting next to a miner not moving, talking, shooting or anything. Then the miner drops the cargo, the transport picks it up, miner logs out, and transport moves off. It's the same thing. It's being exploited too. But, I fail to see how the ID based trade can be exploited in any way, shape, or form.
2. Ship based trade. Same as above, I fail to see how it can be exploited. The way about the trader dropping the cargo for the fighter to shuttle in-between the planet and in orbit is moot as well, as the cargo will disappear as soon as both players are away from the area.
3. Dynamic Economies, again, ARE possible. I explained it once, I'll explain it again. A dynamic economy works with the update system, it will just have to be changed a little bit. Instead of the updater updating on every major patch, the updater would update the ini commodity items every server reset. Software could be written or FLHook could monitor what was sold where, how much, and how often. With that information, it could then update the ini's by a certain amount, update the ini's and then re-upload to the client side. It IS possible; don't tell me it's not. We had one on Evolved ones and the routes changed every day depending on what was selling the most and what wasn't selling enough. Certain bases needed more items than others, and it made it truly fun to trade, because you had to do your research before launching to space. This will get rid of people constantly mining the same ore as well. If this was done, gold ore would have a terrible sell price because people would continue to sell the hell out of it. Next week...scrap would have a terrible sell price because people were selling it all the time, so on and so forth. Also, I fail to see how a dynamic economy could be exploited as well. If it is controlled server side, then I don't understand how it could be exploited.
Just me. Maybe I missed something.
~Leo
Discovery Economy Reformation - Elsdragon - 04-04-2010
A Dynamic economy could pretty much wreck trade factions. I mean, if they could only trade so many items, then when those items get depressed, they cannot do that.
Discovery Economy Reformation - Kal-el - 04-04-2010
' Wrote:Mining is hampered right now by mining ships just hitting cruise the second ANYTHING shows up at 14k. Screaming NO NO NO NO NO STOP STOP STOP I REPORT YOU STOP STOP STOP before you can get within 10k or dashing for a quickdock in Omega 7. Yes I know why you're so popular Kruger and Omega 7. IMG capfleets lollerskates. Thankfully some changes are coming to correct that.
Can you blame them?
1) The only cargo pirates want is the ore. I have never been pirated and asked for any cargo except the ore. Why? Because it is worth more than anything else in game.
2) As I said in my post earlier, pirates log on as soon as they see someone in a mining fields. Then head to that field and take all the miners ore. Does not get any easier than that and I believe that is a problem.
3) I do not believe the answer is getting an escort to sit there with you to protect you. Why? because the problem is the 'lazy pirate' not the miner. Some (not all) pirates want the easy kill. Which does prove your point Dusty that people want it easy.
You hear over and over again that this is an RP server, exept when it comes to the ore. I meet pirates while just trading and most of them will rp before they ask for anything. But not the lazy ore pirates. They are there for one reason and one reason only....to take your ore. Not just some of it mind you, but all of it.
So why doesn't a miner run to protect his hard work to Elbich? Why is that wrong? This problem is not the miner it is the pirate. And until that is fixed you are alway going to have the miners run to the nearest base and it is sad that the miners get the bad rap for doing so.