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+--- Thread: Proposal: ID changes for 4.87 (/showthread.php?tid=98543)
RE: Proposal: ID changes for 4.87 - Eduard - 05-18-2013
(05-18-2013, 10:48 AM)Tel-Aviv Wrote:(05-18-2013, 10:38 AM)Ed- Wrote:(05-18-2013, 10:37 AM)Tel-Aviv Wrote: Now that I had a better look, the plain zoner ID can only defend allied ships while the other factions may defend neutral ones as well ( others are OSI & TAZ ) dismissed on purpose? Because I think it should be the other way around since both TAZ and OSI work most of the times in the other part of the universe when the plain ones operate in the omicron edgeworlds.
This may be because the zoners are not meant to fight and defend others with use of guns except themselves, which they also do in extreme cases.
I don't find the zoners to be a altruistic, helpful bunch that will defend neutral people which they have little to no interest in. It will only sport more complications for their diplomacy
Also, not all plain zoners operate in the omicrons
That's true but the artificial buble that the community created on the zoners is false, the lore was messed up I give you that, but let's not forget that the zoners do not operate in house-space, instead they operate in the far reaches of sirius, close to a lot of ... "angry factions" in the omicrons. The only reason why I want this to be added is because people exploit the zoner ID restrictions and I can't keep doing 1.2 violations.
I never did say that the zoners operate in House Space.
Also, the fact that they operate between a lot of "angry factions" is the best reason for why they shouldn't assist any "neutral" guy they find on the streets.
In my opinion, assisting ( defending, or assisting in combat ) should be available only when people may refer to assisting another zoner.
Which is why I asked if the line where it says that they can assist and treat GMG and Order as allies could be tweaked
RE: Proposal: ID changes for 4.87 - Zen_Mechanics - 05-18-2013
There are many loop-holes in the zoner ID and everyone exploit them one way or another, this illusion of "peacekeepers" was purposely placed to weaken it, when in truth ( as jinx said ) the zoners are way more powerful than the other factions in the region, that includes the corsairs ( wethe they like it or not, they exist purely because of zoners - INRP ) and having said all that, because zoners are individuals and are "neutral.. yeah right" they may choose who to help and who not to help ( Im reffering to indie zoners ). I fail to see why people haven't learned anything from the "omicroners" - inrp you must have a faction that is willing to standup for zoners, not the phoney balony diplomacy of hand shaking here and there and dismiss things out of hand, like " ow its a zoner killing.. lets go home" - People never tired of telling me " you wanna shoot someone? be a hessian! " - quick get out of jail card eh? Trust me I can always dock and relog with another ship but that causes division and pure metagaming. It is the other factions that need to cring under the zoners, not the other way around. Inrp if you had someone realistic he would ban any zoner-pirating ship but for some reason it is accepted as if its ok. It's not enough that inrp zoners feed crete, they must also be pirated as well and get away with it in the proceeds ( I realize thats what pirates are meant to do ) Why do you think we've created the "Zoner alliance" ? and why do you think they are upset by us? It's because unlike others we pay retribution to anyone who dares to mess with the zoners, Im sure they tear their hair out if frustration now that they can't pirate zoners freely, Anything that upsets low-minded people who exploit every loop-hole in this game is a little more joy to me and my friends.
RE: Proposal: ID changes for 4.87 - Duvelske - 05-18-2013
as this is a discussion about id's not general discussion about zoners i made a topic here to discuss that:
http://discoverygc.com/forums/showthread.php?tid=98709
RE: Proposal: ID changes for 4.87 - AeternusDoleo - 05-18-2013
Quote:You didn't add Leeds/Bretonia at all as part of the ZOI for the Liberty Navy ID. As it stands right now, the Liberty Navy has been operating in and around Bretonia on and off, assisting the BAF| with the defense of Leeds, and conducting recon, so in the very least, we should have Leeds on our ID, unless you mean to tell us that we cannot defend our allies, conduct recon, and establish trade connections inRP.Has the storyline already progressed to that point? I was under the impression that that would happen during 4.87, not before it... I could be wrong though.
Quote:Pilot A: What are you doing here?Admin: *Ignores report since that's not a violation*
Pilot B: I'm on a Trade mission from x
Pilot A: YOu're out of your ID ZOI!!!! REPROT!!
Being outside your ZoI in and of itself isn't a violation. However, if the LN goes and hunts pirates in say Kusari, then it becomes an issue. Players have more privileges inside their ZoI, but are not restricted to them.
Quote:There actually is a deal with the Hackers. I think the exact details are that we ignore their smugglers and allow them to dock on FP4 (-0.3 rephack), and we do not get pirated as often in return.Fixed that for you. LH~ might let us be, but Hacker indies can still hit IMG players. Not the preferred target, but still a target of opportunity.
Quote:- Can hunt ships belonging to houses or organisations considered hostile by X within their Zone of Influence.I'm not sure what you're asking here... For factions like DSE to be allowed to explicitly go looking for pirates outside of Liberty's borders, where they have no bases or other assets to protect?
Zone of Influence: X
This is redundant, since if the factions are hostile to X, they would not be there in the first place. Allowing them to AT LEAST engage these organizations in the borderworlds between all houses would be much easier.
Quote:I quite agree that there are grieving xenos, but there are griefers everywhere. I've spoken with people and come up with a proposition. XA can use that line effectively without taking away from RP, in essence we actually make the RP more realistic. Would an official ID specifically for the Xeno Alliance be able to be made WITH this line added, assuming the proposed change goes through?Possibly. But I still prefer a universal fix for this:
How can we allow for non-piracy, terrorist faction roleplay (Xenos, LWB, Gaians, FA, Maquis) while preventing the ID from becoming susceptible to grievers who just bluemessage everything with no roleplay short of an engagement notice? If anyone has any ideas in regards to this, let me know.
Proper test: Apply your suggestion to the ID, then place yourself in the shoes of a griefer who wants nothing less then to bluemessage transports with as little RP as possible.
Quote:It might be me. but does Rishiri dont belong to kusari anymore? As it used to be kusari and here its a tau.By design. It is a Tau borderworld on the edge of Kusari space. Kinda like Omega-11 is an Omega borderworld on the edge of Rheinland space.
Quote:The ZoI is lacking Coronado and Inverness which both connect to Cortez and are close to Vespucci. I'm sure it slipped your mind considering the amount of stuff going on right now but if it was done on purpose please talk with either me or Max about it (preferably Max).Explain to me why you need those systems included. They aren't on the path from Vespucci into Liberty, and don't provide an alternate route into Liberty. IE why would the Hellfire Legion need to go there?
Quote:Now that I had a better look, the plain zoner ID can only defend allied ships while the other factions may defend neutral ones as well ( others are OSI & TAZ ) dismissed on purpose? Because I think it should be the other way around since both TAZ and OSI work most of the times in the other part of the universe when the plain ones operate in the omicron edgeworlds."Ohai. Captain of random Juggie here. These miners are my friends. Bugger off pirate before I swat you."
See why the Zoner ID needs some special handling? It's virtually neutral-to-all so adding in the ability to defend neutral ships gives them the action to join in an existing fight on either side at will. With snubs to dreads. Bit much don't you think? Player faction IDs (closed ones) aren't that big a problem. If players behave irresponsibly on those, the admins can contact those factions and ask for an explanation. Open IDs... not so much.
Zoners being neutral to everyone tends to mean that Zoners shouldn't be shooting anyone that isn't shooting at them first. IE if the Core keeps getting attacked by Zoner Juggies, I'd not consider it unreasonable for the Core and BHG factions to start shooting Zoners back Siriuswide. Which would be problematic since the BHG have many NPCs on Freeports.
RE: Proposal: ID changes for 4.87 - Zen_Mechanics - 05-18-2013
(05-18-2013, 04:39 PM)AeternusDoleo Wrote:Quote:Now that I had a better look, the plain zoner ID can only defend allied ships while the other factions may defend neutral ones as well ( others are OSI & TAZ ) dismissed on purpose? Because I think it should be the other way around since both TAZ and OSI work most of the times in the other part of the universe when the plain ones operate in the omicron edgeworlds."Ohai. Captain of random Juggie here. These miners are my friends. Bugger off pirate before I swat you."
See why the Zoner ID needs some special handling? It's virtually neutral-to-all so adding in the ability to defend neutral ships gives them the action to join in an existing fight on either side at will. With snubs to dreads. Bit much don't you think? Player faction IDs (closed ones) aren't that big a problem. If players behave irresponsibly on those, the admins can contact those factions and ask for an explanation. Open IDs... not so much.
Zoners being neutral to everyone tends to mean that Zoners shouldn't be shooting anyone that isn't shooting at them first. IE if the Core keeps getting attacked by Zoner Juggies, I'd not consider it unreasonable for the Core and BHG factions to start shooting Zoners back Siriuswide. Which would be problematic since the BHG have many NPCs on Freeports.
Yes but I was argueing that because zoners are individuals, they make up their own decisions, while zoner factions will not do a thing that can damage their status among other factions. But them's the breaks.
RE: Proposal: ID changes for 4.87 - AshHill07 - 05-18-2013
(05-18-2013, 04:39 PM)AeternusDoleo Wrote:Quote:You didn't add Leeds/Bretonia at all as part of the ZOI for the Liberty Navy ID. As it stands right now, the Liberty Navy has been operating in and around Bretonia on and off, assisting the BAF| with the defense of Leeds, and conducting recon, so in the very least, we should have Leeds on our ID, unless you mean to tell us that we cannot defend our allies, conduct recon, and establish trade connections inRP.
Has the storyline already progressed to that point? I was under the impression that that would happen during 4.87, not before it... I could be wrong though.
Both [LN] and SFC| have deployed pretty much everything up to and includeing battleships into Leeds to help the BAF|. So yeh, its deffinatly happed pre-4.87.
RE: Proposal: ID changes for 4.87 - Teerin - 05-18-2013
My apologies, Aeternus, for taking a few days to get back to you. I wrote the following in red/blue before you updated your proposal, so please keep that in mind.
(05-16-2013, 08:48 PM)AeternusDoleo Wrote: About the UC: I need to know what this faction wants to become. Getting the following:And here's what I'm typing up now;
- Mercenaries (Siriuswide) While we escort (see below) and have signed up on Bounty Boards (which any ID can do) to hunt Outcasts/K'Hara/the like, a specific mercenary line might be unnecessary.
- Escorts for lawfuls (Siriuswide) Correct, however I'm not asking for Sirius-wide, simply ZoI or slightly greater. Yet if Sirius-wide is the way it has to work, then go ahead.
- Black market runners (Gallia) Yes. Mainly (but not only) BM Munitions and Cryocubes though, since in theory Brigands ship most of the dirty (Nox, Hypnos, Synth) stuff for us because we stand to lose more if caught with those.
- Privateers (for Gallia) I agree with you, the Corse are not to be Gallic versions of Bret Privateers. Hone, who mentioned privateering, has a character (not in [UC]) that has become somewhat infamous in Bretonia. However, the Corse can act as vigilantes in Gallic House Space when it profits them to do so (as they have been with the 4.86 ID).
- Pirates (Gallic border or even in Gallia) This explanation is more player-faction specific, for [UC] will only make such demands against GJs, Outcasts, GCs, and Cardi smugglers, or if we catch someone smuggling on our own turf. This isn't some sort of full-time piracy though, so work this in however it best fits (I'll add that the current and suggested lines about within ZoI but outside Gallic House Space seem sufficient for this).
- Quasilawful traders with full access to GRN bases in the conquered areas While this would be good to have and would make sense, I'll admit it isn't stricty necessary. If something more than listed above has to be cut, I suppose that this can be it.
... (see above)
Another issue is that several of these roles require a different ZoI and can't really be combined without opening the use of the ID to some serious loopholes.This is understandable, especially considering the loopholes in our current ID. Should any of my suggestions have an issue, contact me and I'll help you guys fix it.
If the GJ are more pro-royalist then the UC, then they'd be more suited for the Privateering role. I'll see if something like that can be arranged. GJs as Privateers make more sense by the lore, since they did previously gather information for the Gallic Crown. Instead of having them get completely cast off (like the scum they are XD) by the Crown, they should get tasked to this sort of role instead. I have no real say in what happens to the GJs though.
(05-17-2013, 10:30 AM)AeternusDoleo Wrote: Revision 5 upped. Some minor fixes, but the Gallic Junker and Unione Corse IDs got a bigger overhaul. Assigned privateering jobs to the pro-Royalist Gallic Junkers. Assigned Mercenary work inside a limited ZoI to Unione Corse, along with quasilawful piracy outside of Gallic Core World space.
Quote:Pilot carrying this quasilawful ID is a member of the Unione Corse who:It's interesting to see the Policing line removed, although I suppose it can be replaced with some sort of bounty contract with the GRN or GRP if we feel it necessary to continue enforcing the laws there. This and the added bounty/escort lines should be fine (contrary to the bits of red above), but I'll probably have to talk with a few other people to gather a better opinion on the Policing part though, so this stance may be changed.
- Can attack pirates and terrorists in self-defense, to protect an allied ship, or in defense of bases of the same affiliation within and outside their Zone of Influence.
- Can demand cargo and credits from ships, and attack them if they do not comply within their Zone of Influence, except in Gallic House space.
- Can fulfill lawful and unlawful bounty and escort contracts within their Zone of Influence.
- Can treat trade vessels as combat targets when executing a bounty or escort contract against them.
- Cannot use any transports with more than 3,600 cargo, except for the l'Ane, Lucullus and Vache.
Zone of Influence: Gallia, Gallic Borderworlds, Taus
Allowed ships: Fighters, Freighters, Transports, Gunboats
Also, the map that was provided is helpful and the inclusion of Rhishi, Nagano, and Tottori in the Taus should prove to be useful. With the escort lines, it may be a good idea to list Kyushu in our ZoI as well since that system is in real close proximity to the Taus, however this is not necessary so I'll leave that up to you.
RE: Proposal: ID changes for 4.87 - Eduard - 05-18-2013
(05-18-2013, 04:39 PM)AeternusDoleo Wrote:Quote:Now that I had a better look, the plain zoner ID can only defend allied ships while the other factions may defend neutral ones as well ( others are OSI & TAZ ) dismissed on purpose? Because I think it should be the other way around since both TAZ and OSI work most of the times in the other part of the universe when the plain ones operate in the omicron edgeworlds."Ohai. Captain of random Juggie here. These miners are my friends. Bugger off pirate before I swat you."
See why the Zoner ID needs some special handling? It's virtually neutral-to-all so adding in the ability to defend neutral ships gives them the action to join in an existing fight on either side at will. With snubs to dreads. Bit much don't you think? Player faction IDs (closed ones) aren't that big a problem. If players behave irresponsibly on those, the admins can contact those factions and ask for an explanation. Open IDs... not so much.
Zoners being neutral to everyone tends to mean that Zoners shouldn't be shooting anyone that isn't shooting at them first. IE if the Core keeps getting attacked by Zoner Juggies, I'd not consider it unreasonable for the Core and BHG factions to start shooting Zoners back Siriuswide. Which would be problematic since the BHG have many NPCs on Freeports.
Since you mentioned this, then, may I forward this as well?
(05-18-2013, 09:49 AM)Ed- Wrote: I have a question regarding the zoner ID.
Quote:Cannot ally with any lawfuls or unlawfuls except GMG and The Order.<- This, to be specific.
My question is: Couldn't this be a little tweaked? I mean, we all know that there's always that nephilim dude acting as if the order and zoners have an official alliance, not worrying for the diplomatical and reputation hits and does lolwut stuff.
So, can it be edited to:
Quote:Cannot ally with any lawfuls or unlawfuls except GMG and The Order against Nomads and Wilde only.
Or maybe deleted at all?
I have a feeling it may serve an ooRP gray area. Like, a nephilim gank fleet attacking the Core, or LSF, or any enemies of the Order and/or the GMG that the zoners wouldn't normally attack
RE: Proposal: ID changes for 4.87 - AeternusDoleo - 05-18-2013
Allright, I'll adjust the LibNaval ID. .
And TelAviv: The fact that indies do not adhere to the faction policies is exactly the reason why that ID needs to be so restricted in terms of what Zoners may attack. They shouldn't even team up against the Nomads - Nomhunting isn't a Zoner role. I'll revise what's on the ID now, it may be a bit too ambiguous yet. The general idea behind the Zoner ID should be "Don't Shoot First.".
[Edit] UC and GJ tweaks should be up now....
RE: Proposal: ID changes for 4.87 - Pavel - 05-18-2013
I'm happy "may treat" is gone from many IDs, good move.
Quote:500571
INFOCARD
Daumann Heavy Construction
Daumann Heavy Construction is a Rheinland industrial corporation that does both mining and manufacturing. It has a partnership with Republican Shipping and competes with Kruger, BMM and the Independent Miners Guild. The Red Hessians often attack Daumann ships.
Pilot carrying this lawful ID is an employee of Daumann Heavy Construction who:
- Can attack pirates and terrorists in self-defense, to protect an allied or neutral lawful ship, or in defense of corporate bases of the same affiliation within and outside their Zone of Influence.
- Can hunt pirates and terrorists within their Zone of Influence.
- Can hunt ships belonging to houses or organisations considered hostile by Rheinland within their Zone of Influence.
- Can hunt Red Hessians.
- Can demand Blood Diamonds from any ship carrying them and destroy those who refuse to comply.
- Can engage in piracy against the IMG and BMM in the Omegas only.
- Cannot ally with any unlawfuls.
- Cannot participate in unlawful actions except as described above.
Zone of Influence: Rheinland, Saar, Omega-3, Omega-7, Omega-9, Omega-11
Allowed ships: Fighters, Freighters, Transports, Gunboats
Generally ok, but we'd like to get few things added:
add Omega 5 to ZOI, we have bases in three systems neighboring and will be interested in quick raids deep into hessian territory, especially in light of coming RP changes in next version, and our dealings with unfriendly to hessians group. If GMG raids Alpha, we want to raid O5.
add Cambridge, we have base in O3, and already hunt hessians there.
add Independent Worlds bordering Rheinland. (see above),
change description to:
"Daumann Heavy Construction is the largest mining and manufacturing corporation in Rheinland, profiting from lucrative position of a sole ship constructor for the Rheinland Military. It has a partnership with Republican Shipping and competes with BMM, Kruger and IMG. DHC often uses mercenaries to attack competition and protect its illegal businesses. The Red Hessians often attack Daumann ships."
We wanted to consist as much info for players about Daumann as we could in few phrases long message, to show DHC as big bad corporation. "Aha, they mine, they build turtles, they secretly do nasty unlawful things". It includes vanilla DHC description and adds flavor of Forsyth-like corporation, thanks to mentioning mercenaries and shady deals, while it's written in order with pattern.
Also, there's an issue with strictly defined ZOIs for corporations, does it mean outside of it escorts cannot protect convoys, rule-wise? What about Bowex pirating Gallic shippers in Rheinland, would that be against the rules too? Can Ageira hunt Hackers somewhere in Kusari, if they meet them? Can DHC demand Blood Diamonds from smuggler in New London?