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+--- Thread: Split from Admin Notice. (/showthread.php?tid=12653)
Split from Admin Notice. - n00bl3t - 10-02-2008
' Wrote:This is correct. A Navy officer can't tell an LPI officer to scoot (except in Zone 21, or in other high military business). If a player is RPing as a character of a higher rank than another player, the appropriate hierarchy comes into play. If they are RPing as someone from, say, a different company, there is no reason for one to claim to hold sway over the other. Trying to do so will likely end in a lawsuit.
Within NPC factions there are a lot less of these situations. However, it is fully possible to have special forces divisions that are under the authority of the Admirals and no one below them (LSF takes orders from the President and no one else, it isn't unreasonable for the Navy to have it's own puppets- even if a little redundant). Within companies, someone working in Advertising and someone working in Distribution may have to work with each other, but neither can boss the other around. If they don't like it, they go through Management. The above are just examples- something can be created for each faction to that effect. (Even the Nomads. Although that group is usually labeled "The Wild". For those out of the loop, Wild is the Rheinland organization. The other houses have their own, and the groups are connected through the Nomads back in Iota and more indirectly to each other. They rarely work with each other, although the Bretonian group relies on the more open Rheinland military force to do its dirty work.)
If you have your rank and parent sub-organization worked out so you don't have to bother with someone and can tell it to them in RP or in PMs if they lack RP clearance, the power to you. If you waltz in and say "I'm not under your authority" then it will be assumed you don't know what you're talking about unless you can provide some substance. Unfortunate, but necessary, since 98% or more of all cases involving "I don't have to listen to you" revolve around people who didn't bother to figure out their own rank, much less why they get around normal hierarchy.
But really, if you've got reason to step around the chain of command, don't settle for getting ordered around. It's still a good idea to clear things with the relevant faction leaders to prevent unpleasantries, but if you have real RP that indicates "organization X has no authority over organization Y" then, well, organization X should not be ordering organization Y around. They can try, but that should get resolved with first a PM reminder in case it's a mistake, and barring that go through the bureaucracy.
Please note: the above is all well and good, but I cannot stress enough that you need to know where you are in the chain of command (even if you're somewhere off to the side). Continuing the expired equestrienne of the Liberty Navy example, LN IFF/ID means normal Liberty Navy officer unless specified otherwise, and Liberty Navy officers answer to Liberty Navy officers of higher rank.
In other words, to play without interference you must RP a slight variation of the Force H idea.
(Where you are independent of the chain of command, etc. Yes I am aware that the Force H idea is not exactly that.)
Split from Admin Notice. - Akumabito - 10-02-2008
' Wrote:This is correct. A Navy officer can't tell an LPI officer to scoot
It's more complex than that as I can attest to being ex military, there is a chain of command, if you are a private under one chain of command an admiral in another chain of command won't give you direct orders because it breaks the chain of command. If your the president and supreme commander you don't give direct orders, you pas them down the chain of command.
As I said, RP wise or fun game wise, these faction leaders who try to pwn all with the ID their faction has are simply doing it bully. And that is wrong.
Split from Admin Notice. - sovereign - 10-02-2008
' Wrote:In other words, to play without interference you must RP a slight variation of the Force H idea.
(Where you are independent of the chain of command, etc. Yes I am aware that the Force H idea is not exactly that.)
Basically. If you don't want to get ordered around by people, why'd you join a military? Granted, you'll often be left with vague orders to defend Liberty or some such, but if you want to be a normal military person, you should be ready to take orders like a normal military person does. If you want to do whatever the hell you want, that's what the generic IDs are for. Looser organizations (like most criminal organizations) work in a pinch, as while they have command structures, they are rarely invoked- they are rarely needed since the faction is united by ideology, and there's no complaints about shooting people that make a fuss.
Important note: I am not implying that you should get every last thing you do fed through someone else, but that if you play as a person with superior officers you need to be okay with the possibility that you might get every last thing you do fed through someone else. Comes with the turf, so to speak.
EDIT:
' Wrote:It's more complex than that as I can attest to being ex military, there is a chain of command, if you are a private under one chain of command an admiral in another chain of command won't give you direct orders because it breaks the chain of command. If your the president and supreme commander you don't give direct orders, you pas them down the chain of command.
As I said, RP wise or fun game wise, these faction leaders who try to pwn all with the ID their faction has are simply doing it bully. And that is wrong.
I am not a military man myself and so I don't know the finer intricacies of the chain of command (although I've heard a fair bit from the rest of my family, which has a somewhat strong military tradition), but I did try to mention something about 'closer laterally'. I'm not sure how the United States Navy matches up with the Liberty Navy, but if Navy High Command makes a statement about strict division of command chains, then I would revise my earlier example accordingly. I was under the impression, however, that in most militaries a General/Admiral/Man with Big Hat can tell some random Private to do something regardless of which General/Admiral/Man with Big Hat that random Private happens to fall under the specific umbrella of. It may be that they can refuse and just don't so that they don't have a hangup on promotion opportunities, but more clarification is needed before saying one way or another.
As for the "faction leaders who try to pwn all" well yes that's a bit silly. It is wrong to bully people because you want to. There is one particular touchy instance of what looks like that, and instance that gets brought up far too often to nag on specifics rather than overall idea, and I'm not going to comment on my feelings about that here. Rest assured that under new leadership and an involved command board that particular thing is getting re-worked or possibly scrapped to avoid bullying people for the sake of bullying, or if at all possible to avoid bullying people at all. It isn't fun to kill people's fun, and killing people's fun is not something I support as a knee-jerk response to a problem. Working with people and getting their feedback almost always results in a far more agreeable and effective alternative. As we are all painfully aware, the particular instance had almost unanimously negative feedback and quite possibly did more harm than good. For that reason, it is being fixed or scrapped. There may be a few people who like to pwn underlings because they can, but the vast majority of people aren't like that.
Now I'm slightly lost as to where my train of thought ended up. Hopefully I've gotten across my interpretation of accurate RP vs silly stuff without any accidental dumb specifics in there.
Split from Admin Notice. - jimmy Patterson - 10-02-2008
yes balter your right UNLESS its on the embassy grounds or behind the walls then its us soil same should apply for say 5 k around or "with in thew walls" walls being the ships longest weapon
Split from Admin Notice. - chovynz - 10-02-2008
' Wrote:It's more complex than that as I can attest to being ex military, there is a chain of command, if you are a private under one chain of command an admiral in another chain of command won't give you direct orders because it breaks the chain of command. If your the president and supreme commander you don't give direct orders, you pas them down the chain of command.The trouble that your arguments are facing is that "Director" Copeland IS the head of LSF. Same with the LN. The head of the player faction IS roleplaying as the head of the NPC faction as well. (as far as I understand.) So anyone (in the player faction or in the non-player faction branches of LSF or LN respectively) who disobeys any of these guys orders technically ARE breaking the chain of command anyway, hence why they are getting targeted. Specifically, for the LN and LSF they are the heads (as far as I understand). Same with the RM.
As I said, RP wise or fun game wise, these faction leaders who try to pwn all with the ID their faction has are simply doing it bully. And that is wrong.
But the same can-not be said for Outcasts or Corsairs because it is a different governmental structure. and the Outcasts themselves have said that they are a part of the outcasts, not the supreme. (as far as I understand).
Junkers and other pirates are a completely different story as well.
Split from Admin Notice. - Baltar - 10-02-2008
' Wrote:all my post made was a point of people following the npcs they ask you (the ln in edgworlds)for cargo then if we al lfollow the npcs we should have the same right in that edgeworld sense the admin s or whoever watnt us to act just like the npcs then your points baltier are null and void
Edit baltier what your essentally saying is this
US embassy: stop burning our flag
: strong anti american local citizen: sorry you cant tell me what to do its technically your land but because your embasy is in my country i dont have to listen so bugger off* and baltier based on that your
DEAD WRONG to a degree a very small degree ships or whatever around them part of a nation or house have authority over there controld space as if they dont you may get and i hate mentiong this a incadent in freelancer equal to the USS Kole and nobody wil lsit around and let there battleship or whatever get willingly torpedo just because they dont have authority in that system or whatever
as another example i think (they may of droped this) but the royal army has a mandate it says this "wherev a soldier of the queen stands that ground is property of her and her kingdom"
correct me if im wrong but if thats true in real world then it should again to an extreamly small degree like scanner range or with in say 5 k of say that same liberty dreadnaught be liberty space inless its like in cretes orbit or whatever
Where did this "Embassy" come from? Never used the word. And I never mentioned edge worlds. I mentioned Magellan, Kepler and Bering. Those systems are buffer systems between houses.
Sorry ... but I think you are misunderstanding my point. In fact ... I have no clue what you are talking about or where you are going with this. What the heck does a US embassy in your country have ANYTHING to do with Discovery Freelancer?
This is Discovery ... a role playing server ... not real life. I'm talking about the original rules for system ownership on this server. There is no relation between this and the real world. Quit trying to tie this to reality ... its not based on reality ... its based on role playing ... make believe.
' Wrote:yes balter your right UNLESS its on the embassy grounds or behind the walls then its us soil same should apply for say 5 k around or "with in thew walls" walls being the ships longest weapon
Again with the embassy ... what are you talking about?
Split from Admin Notice. - jimmy Patterson - 10-02-2008
to be ever so tact its an analogy
Edit edgeworlds being the edge of core or faction space
Edit 2 ie magellian kepler ectra
Split from Admin Notice. - Baltar - 10-02-2008
Not a very good one.
EDIT: Magellan, Kepler, Bering, etc are NOT edge worlds. Edge worlds include the Taus, Omegas, Omicrons, Sigmas. BUT ... Magellan, Kepler, Bering and the sort are part of the inner core systems.
Split from Admin Notice. - n00bl3t - 10-02-2008
' Wrote:The trouble that your arguments are facing is that "Director" Copeland IS the head of LSF. Same with the LN. The head of the player faction IS roleplaying as the head of the NPC faction as well. (as far as I understand.) So anyone (in the player faction or in the non-player faction branches of LSF or LN respectively) who disobeys any of these guys orders technically ARE breaking the chain of command anyway, hence why they are getting targeted. Specifically, for the LN and LSF they are the heads (as far as I understand). Same with the RM.
But the same can-not be said for Outcasts or Corsairs because it is a different governmental structure. and the Outcasts themselves have said that they are a part of the outcasts, not the supreme. (as far as I understand).
Junkers and other pirates are a completely different story as well.
True.
(We refer to this as power-gaming.)
It would be better if these faction leaders to exercise choice and leave independents to RP by themselves.
' Wrote:Not a very good one.
That's what she said.
Split from Admin Notice. - jimmy Patterson - 10-02-2008
its simple and gets the point across reguardless this is drifting into a flamewar and i dont feel like haveing my computer melt so im done with this topic