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+--- Thread: Proposal: ID changes for 4.87 (/showthread.php?tid=98543)
RE: Proposal: ID changes for 4.87 - Pavel - 05-18-2013
(05-18-2013, 09:02 PM)AeternusDoleo Wrote: That's because it doesn't need to be there. The RM decides who it's (sole) contractor is. Not saying that will change, but leaving the room for it makes sense.
Now, anything else that I've forgotten? Things seem to be dying down in this topic... Knew it'd be a hot potato when I started this, but I'd like to wrap it and return to infocarding.
That's vanilla lore Daumann constructs all the turtles and other stuff. Although seeing as we cannot write own ID description regardless of what the lore says, it doesn't matter.
RE: Proposal: ID changes for 4.87 - Aphil - 05-18-2013
Ah, I just found that the SCRA player-id has been added to your list. I didn't see it there before.
I have to disagree on the Zone of Influence. First of all, we can no longer go to Omicron Alpha, which means that recruits cannot go and complete the Hispania memorium.
Furthermore, why we aren't allowed to strike at the Outcasts, Corsairs as well as Liberty, Kusari and even Gallia? Liberty is basically everything we hate in one house and the others are still our enemies. The SCRA is the sort of group that has an interest in all of Sirius.
I would appreciate it if you told us your line of thought on the matter.
RE: Proposal: ID changes for 4.87 - Irwin - 05-18-2013
(05-18-2013, 09:02 PM)AeternusDoleo Wrote: Now, anything else that I've forgotten?
(05-18-2013, 07:33 PM)Captain Irwin of the Lance Wrote: The second thing I'd like to bring up is the recent cargo limitation on Outcast and Corsair ID's. A good deal of Outcast and Corsair income comes from smuggling, which many argue isn't profitable enough even in 5k's right now. I'm content with the current pay off for smuggling, but most people aren't. It feels like this change was made to streamline the Outcasts and Corsairs into a more uniform box where all the other unlawful factions fit. The problem is, they don't fit there. They're not like the other unlawful factions, and for most OC and Corsair players, that's the beauty of it. OC's and Corsairs using 5k's doesn't hurt anything, and it does make sense when you compare them to the other factions that can smuggle. Why try and change this when it's not broken in the first place? And, if the change is final for the IDs, will you be increasing the payout for Cardamine, Slaves, Artifacts, and food on Crete to compensate for how much you're harming the smuggling business?
RE: Proposal: ID changes for 4.87 - AeternusDoleo - 05-18-2013
That's a whoopsy. SCRA ID (playerfaction one) shouldn't have a ZoI listed. It's considered Siriuswide.
As for the unlawfuls, I really don't see the problem with using the PTrain at 4.300 cargo for smuggling runs - which is meant to be the unlawful heavy mover. Or the Pilgrim Liner if you want to use something with a bit more of a bite to fend off hostiles. Using lawful designs... I dunno. It strikes me as wrong to see a Molly Shire, or Rogue Bison move around. Or an Outcast Luxuary Liner, or a Corsair Titanic. All of these are potential combis without any kind of drawback to them other then lawfuls chasing you.
RE: Proposal: ID changes for 4.87 - Sirius Coalition - 05-18-2013
Ah, alright. No harm done then.
Thank you for clarifying!-Aphil
RE: Proposal: ID changes for 4.87 - Irwin - 05-18-2013
(05-18-2013, 09:32 PM)AeternusDoleo Wrote: As for the unlawfuls, I really don't see the problem with using the PTrain at 4.700 cargo for smuggling runs - which is meant to be the unlawful heavy mover. Or the Pilgrim Liner if you want to use something with a bit more of a bite to fend off hostiles. Using lawful designs... I dunno. It strikes me as wrong to see a Molly Shire, or Rogue Bison move around. Or an Outcast Luxuary Liner, or a Corsair Titanic. All of these are potential combis without any kind of drawback to them other then lawfuls chasing you.
Perhaps I can agree that it's odd for entirely lawful corporate transports to be used by unlawfuls, but what about civilian transport designs? Furthermore, lawful traders have the same amount of combos without any kind of drawback to them other than pirates chasing them. That point is pretty irrelevant. Basically, the only valid argument here is that you don't like unlawfuls using the same transports as lawful corporations. That makes sense when their creator is clearly identified and known in lore.
But civilian transports? Those exist to be used by, well, everyone, and it makes perfect sense that unlawfuls as powerful as the Outcasts or Corsairs would be able to get their hands on a few of them.
All you've really said here is that you don't like it, but you don't really provide much reasoning as to why, and you don't provide any compensation for the nerf to something that most people already think is underpowered.
RE: Proposal: ID changes for 4.87 - Teerin - 05-18-2013
As I just mentioned to you on Skype, there's a bit of contradiction between a few of the IDs, mainly in regards to alliances. I scanned through them all and found some more.
Maquis and Brigands IDs do not let them ally with lawfuls, however the Colonial Republic (lawful ID) lets them ally with those two.
The BPA ID (and possibly the CR ID as well) may need an exception for allying with the Kusari Exiles, since their ID is unlawful. Or, as you said, make the Kusari Exiles a quasilawful group.
Furthermore, the Outcasts are allowed to ally with Bretonian lawfuls against other unlawfuls, but the BPA ID proposal does not presently allow this.
Similarly, the Bunschuh ID allows them to ally with or against Rheinland lawfuls, but the RFP ID does not let them ally in return.
Although not a contradiction per se, the Zoner ID perhaps should be allowed to ally with other Zoner groups (TAZ and OSI).
The Bounty Hunters Guild ID limits them from allying with unlawfuls, however they have sided with the Council against Gallia. Again, not much of a contradiction here, but something to think about.
The Corsairs and Black Sails are allowed to ally with Kusari lawfuls against other unlawfuls, however the KSP are not allowed to ally with them for their ID is unlawful.
The map displaying the various regions shows that Okinawa is considered part of the Sigma region, however the GMG, Corsair, and Black Sails IDs lists both the Sigmas and Okinawa. Is Okinawa indeed part of Kusari, or is this just a clarification for those who do not know Okinawa is a Sigma?
RE: Proposal: ID changes for 4.87 - AeternusDoleo - 05-18-2013
Which specific Civilian Transports are we talking about here, which you don't consider to be solely lawful?
Stork (Advanced Train: 5.000
Titanic: 4.800
Crane (Large Train): 4.500
Enterprise Liner: 4.300
(Pirate Train: 4.300)
These are the only civilian, siriuswide ships that would be excluded. And aside from the Pirate Train, they're all defined as lawful ships.
Another point is that the unlawful factions have, next to moving cargo, piracy as a means to generate activity. The pure shipping factions (house haulers) -only- have moving cargo as the means to generate activity. I'd say giving those factions a leg up in the cargo department isn't a bad idea from a gameplay standpoint.
RE: Proposal: ID changes for 4.87 - Irwin - 05-18-2013
(05-18-2013, 10:18 PM)AeternusDoleo Wrote: Which specific Civilian Transports are we talking about here, which you don't consider to be solely lawful?
Stork (Advanced Train: 5.000
Titanic: 4.800
Crane (Large Train): 4.500
Enterprise Liner: 4.300
(Pirate Train: 4.300)
These are the only civilian, siriuswide ships that would be excluded. And aside from the Pirate Train, they're all defined as lawful ships.
Another point is that the unlawful factions have, next to moving cargo, piracy as a means to generate activity. The pure shipping factions (house haulers) -only- have moving cargo as the means to generate activity. I'd say giving those factions a leg up in the cargo department isn't a bad idea from a gameplay standpoint.
Those are civilian ships, meaning, neither lawful nor unlawful. They're Sirius Civilian (meaning open use, for all civilians) from both a roleplay perspective and a tech chart/rules perspective. That's like saying the Eagle or Roc are lawful ships. Also, you completely forgot about the Shukensha.
As for your point about how unlawfuls can pirate... It's kind of irrelevant.
If you want to talk about the other things unlawfuls can do, there are lawful factions with wide ZoI's, far more to do than just trade (like policing their space and mining), that have higher cargo limits. I'd argue there's more activity there than activity you get from piracy, but I digress.
If this is about some sort of balancing from a gameplay standpoint, it's not really gonna work at all. The lawful trading factions already have several advantages over smugglers, in terms of making money and how easy things are. Unlawfuls can't trade in the most profitable commodities (ores) with nearly as much efficiency. Unlawfuls don't have trade lanes for a good deal of their routes, and it's riskier for them to use them. Unlawfuls don't have the protection of house militaries and police. Unlawfuls have much more distance to friendly bases. This isn't about giving lawful traders a leg up, they already have one, (there's not much competition between smugglers and lawful traders as it is, one clearly beats out the other). Smuggling is already harder (as it should be, might I add), and there's no need to make it less worthwhile.
RE: Proposal: ID changes for 4.87 - AeternusDoleo - 05-18-2013
Quote:As I just mentioned to you on Skype, there's a bit of contradiction between a few of the IDs, mainly in regards to alliances. I scanned through them all and found some more.Not an oversight. These are all criminal factions. Police should not ally with them. Military are concerned with house sovereignty, police are concerned with law enforcement. These are more for allowing them to ally with Military and Intelligence agencies, against house enemies.
The BPA ID (and possibly the CR ID as well) may need an exception for allying with the Kusari Exiles, since their ID is unlawful. Or, as you said, make the Kusari Exiles a quasilawful group.
Furthermore, the Outcasts are allowed to ally with Bretonian lawfuls against other unlawfuls, but the BPA ID proposal does not presently allow this.
The Corsairs and Black Sails are allowed to ally with Kusari lawfuls against other unlawfuls, however the KSP are not allowed to ally with them for their ID is unlawful.
Similarly, the Bunschuh ID allows them to ally with or against Rheinland lawfuls, but the RFP ID does not let them ally in return.
Quote:Maquis and Brigands IDs do not let them ally with lawfuls, however the Colonial Republic (lawful ID) lets them ally with those two.Check. Brigands is iffy, but Maquis... those two groups are heavily anti-GRN, so joining up makes sense.
Quote:Although not a contradiction per se, the Zoner ID perhaps should be allowed to ally with other Zoner groups (TAZ and OSI).TAZ and OSI IDs both start with "This pilot is a Zoner who..." so that's a non-issue.
Quote:The Bounty Hunters Guild ID limits them from allying with unlawfuls, however they have sided with the Council against Gallia. Again, not much of a contradiction here, but something to think about.They've been shooting the same targets, which doesn't neccesarily mean allying. BHG is about shooting criminals - joining in a major war is a new thing for them. I'm not 100% sure what to do about this.
Quote:The map displaying the various regions shows that Okinawa is considered part of the Sigma region, however the GMG, Corsair, and Black Sails IDs lists both the Sigmas and Okinawa. Is Okinawa indeed part of Kusari, or is this just a clarification for those who do not know Okinawa is a Sigma?Superfluous statement indeed. I initially had Okinawa lumped under Kusari, but given it's a GMG system, putting it under the Sigma cluster makes more sense.