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+--- Thread: Proposal: ID changes for 4.87 (/showthread.php?tid=98543)
RE: Proposal: ID changes for 4.87 - Echo 7-7 - 05-19-2013
(05-18-2013, 04:39 PM)AeternusDoleo Wrote: ...
Quote:The ZoI is lacking Coronado and Inverness which both connect to Cortez and are close to Vespucci. I'm sure it slipped your mind considering the amount of stuff going on right now but if it was done on purpose please talk with either me or Max about it (preferably Max).Explain to me why you need those systems included. They aren't on the path from Vespucci into Liberty, and don't provide an alternate route into Liberty. IE why would the Hellfire Legion need to go there?
...
Just because they don't lead into Liberty in no way means they're out of reach. The Jump Holes into both systems are easily accessible from Cortez. The HF's primary objectives involve guerilla warfare in Liberty, but secondary objectives involve hitting the Cardi/Slave smuggling route in order to shut down the Outcast influence.
Going into Inverness has twofold purpose; it provides the potential to hit the smugglers we don't like closer to the source, and the system is also a route into Bretonia and our close allies, the Mollies, in Newcastle.
Coronado is an even bigger no-brainer; it's a highway for every faction under the sun that is not able or chooses not to use the Gate/Lane network; the HF is no exception. The Legion has its own agents and sympathisers on Barrier Gate, plus there is a strong possibility for a developing relationship (both military and economic) with the CR. Additionally, we're moderately chummy with the nearby TAZ in Baffin, who we visit from time to time. Not to mention I'd like to be able to pimpship my Capitals (not possible in Vespucci).
While we're on the subject, why not remove the "Capships can't leave ZoI" line? The only two other IDs with ZoI departures restrictions are the open Coalition and Nomad IDs (whereas the HF ID is regulated). Engagement is restricted by the other clauses so it's not like there's going to be the hypothetical griefing/insta-killing which you endeavour to avoid.
Edit: Not to mention I always considered Coronado part of HF's ZoI anyway.
RE: Proposal: ID changes for 4.87 - Hone - 05-19-2013
How come Privateers arnt allowed to raid the Gallic Homeworlds any more? BIS can, but thats the entire purpose of the privateers, taking the fight to the enemy in small ships, and BIS can go to all the other houses too, whereas privateers are now being kicked out of the one house they could raid.
RE: Proposal: ID changes for 4.87 - SummerMcLovin - 05-19-2013
(05-18-2013, 08:09 PM)AeternusDoleo Wrote: - Lawful IDs get the ability to clear pirates off of the lanes siriuswide. Basically a "convoy sends scouts ahead to clear the way" deal.That sounds rather... open to say the least. In their own house sure, but groups tearing through the lanes without even a convoy? Better to be on the defensive when out and about.
I was going to comment something similar to what Teerin said about some of these allying lines. Although I had already mentioned the CR-Brigands/Maquis discrepancy.
Defending their home alongside some more patriotic revolutionaries or similar could be a fairly common occurrence with some of these IDs. Along with the lack of a "Cannot participate in unlawful actions except as described above" line, leaving the RP a bit more open would be helpful. Of course, the pirates themselves still have their limitations that would be adhered to.
I would more consider the Police being there to protect the people rather than simply uphold the law. The Militaries are more concerned with fighting other houses rather than simply "defending their house sovereignty" (which the police would do as well).
Thinking of the Molly ID again, having a NAP with Gallia doesn't necessarily mean that they will directly attack Bretonians alongside them. There is also the matter of whenever Gallia gets too big for its britches and pisses off the Mollys enough to break the agreement. There are always your patriotic ones at the current moment. Perhaps a similar line to the Bundschuh one to be with or against Bretonian lawfuls (since they have worked with the BPA in particular against Wilde, and of course the Corsairs).
The Exiles being listed as unlawful is something I didn't notice before, doesn't really seem fitting. Those who would be fighting them would be either pirates who can engage everything anyway, or at war with them (Kusari, Gallia) through their own lines. Would save hassle with some of these allying lines.
As for the Hellfire Legion, it isn't much of a stretch to get them a bit further towards their friends in the TAZ, Mollys or Colonials. The last of these can make it to Inverness and Magellan from Coronado, so HF being able to do the same in reverse seems fine.
I'm also with Max on removing the cap restriction. This is a closed faction ID which you've used as justification for the RoS and SCRA to have Sirius-wide capital ships. Perhaps a similar line to the intelligence factions' "self-defence only outside of ZoI" for their caps would be suitable.
(05-19-2013, 02:24 AM)Echo 7-7 Wrote: Edit: Not to mention I always considered Coronado part of HF's ZoI anyway.I've noticed that a few tend to see Coronado as Cortez Mk II (i.e. an "independent system bordering Liberty/Bretonia"), haven't seen anyone get hauled up for it but that might simply be a lack of reports.
The extension into Bretonia for LN might be a little too much. Newcastle I suppose would be ok although not a priority, but Dundee seems rather pointless.
RE: Proposal: ID changes for 4.87 - Reid - 05-19-2013
What the hell is with the cargo restrictions on Corsair/OC IDs? Seriously, these kinds of nerfs are starting to really piss me off. There's no reasonable point to them, and they're there to just make our lives harder. Give me one good reason why Corsair, Outcast, or even Junker IDs should have a cargo restriction on them? All three groups are more powerful than a lone freelancer, but can't have a transport bigger than one? Corsairs and Outcasts can field dozens of caps, and Junkers have their own shipline, yet they can't maintain a Stork?
And don't say ANYTHING about it making their trading OP, because Corsairs and Outcasts can dock in a hell of a lot less places than Gateway and Bowex can.
Oh, IND and OSI are also universal-trade anywhere factions, yet they can use 5K ships. OC/Corsairs can only dock on their ally's bases. Perfect logical reasoning you have there.
But on a lighter note, I do approve of this line
- While using cruisers, can only attack in selfdefense when outside their Zone of Influence.
RE: Proposal: ID changes for 4.87 - Sarawr!? - 05-19-2013
(05-18-2013, 04:39 PM)AeternusDoleo Wrote:Quote:You didn't add Leeds/Bretonia at all as part of the ZOI for the Liberty Navy ID. As it stands right now, the Liberty Navy has been operating in and around Bretonia on and off, assisting the BAF| with the defense of Leeds, and conducting recon, so in the very least, we should have Leeds on our ID, unless you mean to tell us that we cannot defend our allies, conduct recon, and establish trade connections inRP.Has the storyline already progressed to that point? I was under the impression that that would happen during 4.87, not before it... I could be wrong though.
Quote:Pilot A: What are you doing here?Admin: *Ignores report since that's not a violation*
Pilot B: I'm on a Trade mission from x
Pilot A: YOu're out of your ID ZOI!!!! REPROT!!
Being outside your ZoI in and of itself isn't a violation. However, if the LN goes and hunts pirates in say Kusari, then it becomes an issue. Players have more privileges inside their ZoI, but are not restricted to them.
As far as the bit about Libertonian forces operating in Bretonia, I do believe the story has progressed to that point already, as the Libertonians have been conducting trade and combat operations inside of Bretonian space (Leeds), for months now, and of course we've also declared war on Gallia, at least officially, even if in game activity to that end isn't as high as it should be.
Regarding your response to my second point, I'm glad that you clarified, I well know that being outside of a ZOI isn't a rule violation, I only brought it up because in my mind, I foresee a looot of confusion in the community regarding such black and white "ZOI's".
RE: Proposal: ID changes for 4.87 - AeternusDoleo - 05-20-2013
(05-19-2013, 03:40 AM)Safe Haven Wrote: What the hell is with the cargo restrictions on Corsair/OC IDs? Seriously, these kinds of nerfs are starting to really piss me off. There's no reasonable point to them, and they're there to just make our lives harder. Give me one good reason why Corsair, Outcast, or even Junker IDs should have a cargo restriction on them? All three groups are more powerful than a lone freelancer, but can't have a transport bigger than one? Corsairs and Outcasts can field dozens of caps, and Junkers have their own shipline, yet they can't maintain a Stork?Watch your tone please. Crying louder tends to make me deaf and not hear you. That said, I've asked around with the rest of the admins to see how this could best be handled.
And don't say ANYTHING about it making their trading OP, because Corsairs and Outcasts can dock in a hell of a lot less places than Gateway and Bowex can.
Oh, IND and OSI are also universal-trade anywhere factions, yet they can use 5K ships. OC/Corsairs can only dock on their ally's bases. Perfect logical reasoning you have there.
But on a lighter note, I do approve of this line
- While using cruisers, can only attack in selfdefense when outside their Zone of Influence.
Player IDs can have less restrictions - since abuse of them will have the admins come down on the factions. For open IDs, that cannot be done. You'd need to compare the Sair/Cast IDs to the Zoner and Interspace ones respectively.
Junkers can basically dock anywhere except Kusari lawful. That needs a drawback - and preferably not one that'll end them getting rephacked hostile to a house because someone thought it a good idea to run a convoy of 5Kers of Cardi into Manhattan a dozen times. It's a "go to unlawful, do not pass start" waiting to happen if you give those 5Kers.
That said, plan is to allow Casts and Sairs 5Kers (no restriction - they're the biggest unlawful factions in lore - I don't care if other players argue that their own factions are bigger or have more ships - that's the way the storyline is written. Those factions even have a friggin' settled planet ffs, not a bunch of asteroid bases). Remaining unlawful factions: 4.3K, with full allowances for house civvy tech. IE you want to build a Liberty Rogue Bison? Go for it dude, just keep in mind, no CM, no CD. Why not the 5Kers? 'Cause the house movers deserve to be the ones with top cargo. It's what they do.
As for Lawfuls being able to clear the lanes - yea, it does create the risk of a corporation playing Sirius Police, but how would you write this? The basic function of that line is to allow escorts of convoys to engage unlawfuls or quasilawfuls who are hanging around a lane waiting for prey, before the transports themselves are targeted. The "Can protect a friendly transport" line doesn't cover this.
Hellfire Legion ZoI issue: I really think that's stretching it to include the upper independent worlds. You're fighting Liberty, but also finding the time and resources to actively go hunt for Outcasts and smugglers? Who is funding all this? What's the RP reason behind it besides "want to shoot Outcasts/smugglers"? With that line of reasoning, even the Corsairs should have those systems in their ZoI, which obviously isn't happening.
That capships can't leave ZoI ID was on there for some reason - I'll ask Cannon why. Might be your faction did something in the past that warrants it being there.
[Edit] Revision 7 upped. Changes:
- Unlawful cargo allowance bumped. Only Freelancer, automated Freelancer (AI) and Pirate have a sharp limit left. Sair/Outcast: No limit. House unlawfuls: 4.3K (allows PTrain and house battletransports amongst others).
- Some minor fixes to points people made.
RE: Proposal: ID changes for 4.87 - Echo 7-7 - 05-20-2013
(05-20-2013, 12:09 AM)AeternusDoleo Wrote: ...
Hellfire Legion ZoI issue: I really think that's stretching it to include the upper independent worlds. You're fighting Liberty, but also finding the time and resources to actively go hunt for Outcasts and smugglers? Who is funding all this? What's the RP reason behind it besides "want to shoot Outcasts/smugglers"? With that line of reasoning, even the Corsairs should have those systems in their ZoI, which obviously isn't happening.
That capships can't leave ZoI ID was on there for some reason - I'll ask Cannon why. Might be your faction did something in the past that warrants it being there.
...
There's something wrong with wanting to shoot your enemies? This is news to me. These systems are also not within three jumps of Omicron Gamma, so the Corsair example is just... not comparable.
However.
It's an argument I'm willing to concede, provided that the second point is addressed sufficiently. No, we did not "do something" to warrant its addition (certainly not to my knowledge); it's an archaic form of restricting engagement by ZoI. The old HF ID was quite flexible about who we could engage and where, but naturally the Admins at the time did not want HF capital ships going all over Sirius, engaging where and when we pleased. Fair enough. However, now that a standardised line to prevent this happening has been introduced with the new round of ID changes, there's no reason not to include it on the HF ID:
Intelligence Faction IDs Wrote:- While using cruisers Capital Ships, can only attack in self-defense when outside of their Zone of Influence.
RE: Proposal: ID changes for 4.87 - AeternusDoleo - 05-20-2013
Going to take a break from this before I go insane with people asking things that frankly don't make sense when you keep in mind that Disco is a roleplaying server, not a PvP one. Don't expect updates on this soon, I'm going back to infocarding.
RE: Proposal: ID changes for 4.87 - Trail - 05-20-2013
Realize you arent updating it right now but for when you do
Farmers Alliance ID:
- Can demand cargo and credits from lawful and unlawful ships, and attack them if they do not comply within their Zone of Influence, except from Samura vessels.
can a line be added to include the Hogosha? it should sorta be obvious to most people that read the info cards but since the hogosha is also a semi trading faction now and not just Knee breaking mafia pirates it might not come as a normal thing for indies to not pirate Hogosha.
RE: Proposal: ID changes for 4.87 - Ceoran - 05-20-2013
(05-20-2013, 04:10 AM)AeternusDoleo Wrote: Going to take a break from this before I go insane with people asking things that frankly don't make sense when you keep in mind that Disco is a roleplaying server, not a PvP one. Don't expect updates on this soon, I'm going back to infocarding.
I still consider limiting the GMG to only pirate outside of house space a proper move even from a RP-perspective. There are various reasons.
- It just doesn't make sense to attack Kruger and Samura in Honshu and Frankfurt. Rheinland and Kusari wouldn't tolerate it without rendering the GMG a criminal organisation.
- Neither of the two aforementioned factions can retaliate in said systems.
- Not even the Hogosha can pirate the GMG in Honshu. Or anyone else for that matter.
- Should diplomatic relations change to be outright hostile, the GMG has the according line to engage their enemies in Honshu and Frankfurt as well, but at the cost of not being able to safely traverse the according house.
The alternative I can see is pre-emptively rephacking the GMG hostile to the mentioned factions because it will happen anyway after the first incident. That would however give them a happy ride either direction out of their systems.