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+--- Thread: Official Notice - Development Team Strike (/showthread.php?tid=140755)
RE: Official Notice - Development Team Strike - Tarator - 07-11-2016
(07-11-2016, 09:57 AM)Drox Wrote: From what I gather, some admins (do we even know their names? Again, please excuse my ignorance) banned 6 players possibly unjustly. At least, without giving them explanations. Correct so far?
Correct. Though I'm not sure how many admins actually voted for those bans.
(07-11-2016, 09:57 AM)Drox Wrote: The (some?) developers of the mod are striking because they don't feel these bans were justified (because the banned players were not told why they were banned?)
Correct.
(07-11-2016, 09:57 AM)Drox Wrote: Someone started DDoSing the server? Are we to assume one of the banned players is responsible, or a "white knight" trying to stick up for transparency of admin actions, or someone else? What impact has this DDoS had? How long has it been going on?
No. One of the admins already stated that there are no signs that any of the banned might be involved in the attacks. In any case, even script kids know that they should first mask their real IP before proceeding with such attacks, and I assume this case is no different, hence finding out who's behind it might be next to impossible, if not, impossible.
(07-11-2016, 09:57 AM)Drox Wrote: Who is/was Karlotta/Ninja? Did he deserve to get banned?
An old trouble maker who was banned for good, but apparently keeps coming back.
(07-11-2016, 09:57 AM)Drox Wrote: Are perma-bans not actually permanent? Are they "only" 6-month bans? If so, doesn't that mean after 6 months, the player is able to login again, but they won't have any of their ships / cash? (I thought after 3 months of inactivity, the character is deleted?) I guess I should first ask, if a player is banned, does that apply to the forums, game, or both?
Need a green here, but my guess is, it's all down to the staff's consent. A permanent ban, is permanent. Just as how the word "permanent" is defined. The availability of appeal making does not suggest that one will surely be unbanned after those six months. It only means that they are allowed to appeal it after that period, but whether or not they'll get unbanned due to that appeal, is up to the staff.
(07-11-2016, 09:57 AM)Drox Wrote: What are "admins" anyway? Are they people who administer both the game and the forums? Are there different admins for each?
The staff is usually split on two (if we don't count devs) - Moderators (Forum) and Administrators (Server). With administrators being above moderators in the hierarchy if we have to speak strictly.
The moderators maintain the forum, dealing with forum issues with regards to forum rules.
Administrators usually maintain the server and deal with server issues with regards to server rules, but since they are the last say, they too can moderate the forum when needed. Apart from that, they also track and deal with cheaters, process sanctions and player/faction requests and a dozen of other things that I can't think of right now (somebody correct me if I'm wrong somewhere).
(07-11-2016, 09:57 AM)Drox Wrote: It's been suggested that the admins (or current admins) are not explicitly needed. I'm not sure what to think of that opinion, but I find it hard to believe. Are all / some of the current admins corrupt, in the majority of players' opinions? If so, can new, just, admins not be appointed?
I don't think it'll be that easy, even if we assume it ever comes to this.
(07-11-2016, 09:57 AM)Drox Wrote: Has server population dropped since this drama started? (Other than the 6 banned players of course.) I seem to remember a stats page of player activity (years ago). Is that still around?
I don't think so, yet, it's too early to say anyways. The impact of such "events" comes in the long term.
(07-11-2016, 09:57 AM)Drox Wrote: Lastly, is there anything I can do to help the situation? I'm no developer and frankly, I don't have the time nor the energy to moderate. I assume the answer to this question is therefore "no" but Discovery (the game, not necessarily the forum, no offense, as I said, there have been many great posts) has always been very dear to me. I would like to help if I can. I'm sorry for the extreme length of this noob post and really appreciate any answers given.
Just stick around, and try to enjoy the game whilst being a positive part of this community. This is the best way one can help.
And just for the record, that was hardly a noob post. All good.
Fly safe
RE: Official Notice - Development Team Strike - St.Denis - 07-14-2016
Seeing as this has dragged on for quite a while, I thought that I would say something about your Post and your Demands. Please note that this is not in Admin Green as this is being Posted by me and does not, in anyway, reflect the stance of the WHOLE Admin Team or, indeed, any other Admin.
The Discovery Development Team Wrote:The men and women of the Discovery Freelancer development team have observed the recent actions of the server’s administration and cannot in good conscience continue work on the mod at this time. We find the recent matters regarding both the bans of Impy, Karst, Lythrilux, Mephistoles, Snoopy, and Swifty as well as the administration’s attitude towards any dissent on the subject deeply concerning. In addition, we find transparency and justification for the bans to be lacking. We do not find the canned and pre-prepared statements given by the administration to be sufficient in justifying their decision. Finally, we find the administration’s response of “If you don’t like us, leave” to be damaging to the game environment that we in the development team attempt to cultivate.It is your right to decide not to work on the Development of the Mod. In my opinion, none of us, regardless of ones EGO or feelings of self-importance, is irreplaceable. This includes Admins, Mods, Devs and Faction Leaders. All of the fore-mentioned people have been changed many times, over the years. The Game was here before most, if not all, of us were in these positions and the Game will more than likely still be going, in one form or another, after most of us have moved on. The people that are important, to this Game, are the silent majority. These are the ones that come here to play, have fun and generally are no trouble, at all.
The Discovery Development Team Wrote:Before we can resume work on the mod we demand that the following terms be met.Demands, out of the blue, are generally never well received and, as you and I can probably guess, these are not going to be met. It would have more likely been better received if you had approached the Admin Team and tried to discuss your concerns without having to resort to this. If this had happened and you still were not satisfied, then you could have gone down this road (the diplomatic approach first and then the iron fist, later).
The Discovery Development Team Wrote:The Administration shall make available in full all forum and skype discussion which led to the decision to ban the aforementioned individuals.This is never going to happen. You are not entitled to see any ‘evidence’, unless you are the person involved or in some cases the Faction Leader of the person involved. The Faction Leaders, in this case, are also not entitled to see any ‘evidence’ due to this not involving any Faction Tagged Ships (with some, if not all, of these being in multiple Factions, who would we give the evidence to?) Just to put the record straight, not one of those involved has approached me for any evidence (possibly because I don’t have some of these on Skype). I was approached by one Faction Leader and I told him what I have written above.
The Discovery Development Team Wrote:2.) The Administration shall concede to any further terms laid out after the discourse and evidence requested above is reviewed by the development team, should we deem more terms necessary to continue work on the mod.Just to repeat myself, this is also never going to happen. Your Demand is basically like asking for a signed blank cheque. I do wonder if these demands were written, whilst angry and all pumped with one’s self-importance, because in reality no-one would ever agree to this. I have taken time to think about this and not written it with any feelings of outrage etc. which I cannot say was done here.
The Discovery Development Team Wrote:3.) This thread will not be moderated to an unreasonable extent, locked, removed, or made invisible.The Admins/Mods decide what shall and shall not be moderated on the Forums and unless the Threads, or Posts within it, breaks any Rules then it should remain. I will defend that right for any and all Threads/Posts.
The Discovery Development Team Wrote:Until the Administration meets our terms in full, the Discovery Freelancer development team shall officially remain on strike and no work shall be conducted. These terms are non-negotiable. Should Discovery’s administration choose not to acknowledge the above terms, you can consider our positions as developers to be null and void.Once again, this is never going to happen. It is, also in my opinion, better to allow things to be negotiable, as this allows leeway and makes people feel that they are not cornered. When discussions happen, people feel a lot more relaxed if they feel they have some say in moving things forward. This demand, along with the ones above, allowed for no compromise and if you look close enough, you can see that it is the same as what you were decrying above.
Quote:Finally, we find the administration’s response of “If you don’t like us, leave”
I just want to put in to perspective of what you have done here.
You Develop the Game, you make decisions, some times without transparency and the Community have to live with it. I have even heard cries of ‘Bias’ when a certain Faction suddenly gets ‘new toys’ or a conveniently placed Base. I don’t think I have ever heard the Admins shout ‘Lets Strike unless the Devs do what we want’. It is not our place to second guess what you are doing. You are the guys that make these decisions, whether I or anyone else believes they are the right or wrong ones and whether they are done for the right or wrong reasons. As Admins, we have to make certain decisions, some of them are not easy, but we, as far as I am aware, make them for the right reasons.
These are the 12 people that were voted on. The names were suggested by different Admins, some of the names were suggested by only one Admin others by more than 1 Admin. Some people will feel, that some of the names are justified and some not, but these are what were brought forward.
[Lyth]
[Meph]
[Jayce]
[Impy]
[Omi]
[Karst]
[Swifty]
[Thyrzul]
[Protege]
[Neonbunny]
[Phantom]
[Snoopy]
Now, when I voted on these people, I used my judgement. I also used these two:
Quote:To develop and safeguard the health of the Discovery Freelancer community, official server, and forums.
To be fair and treat all players equally, independent of their level and faction alignment.
The last one is important as some of these are Faction Leaders and they, regardless of their beliefs, are just equal as the rest of the Players.
I based it on what I had witnessed in Game, on the Forums, what I had seen whilst sat on the Desk and what I have personally witnessed on Skype (I do not frequent TS). Some of these I have no contact with, on Skype, as I don’t happen to be in the same Factions as them. I have little or no contact with most, except with those in the OFL Chat (I don’t generally involve myself in that either).
Here are some scenarios I have seen.
Quote:People who like to walk the grey area of the Rules and when called out about it, state ‘It doesn’t say I can’t’. Yet when someone pulls a like stunt against them, they are the first to put in a Violation Report.
A handful of PvP Aces log in to the Game, find a small Group who are having fun and then decimate then in about 30 seconds, shout some nonsense lines in System Chat, Planet dive and log off. They have had their 30 seconds of fun, ruined the fun of the others. I have no problem with people having fun but not solely at the detriment of everyone else.
‘Hey, it is Fred Blogs, log your <insert Ship type> lets gank him.
Hey, Fred has logged with some of his mates, nobody likes him lets gank him. (this is, in its simplest form, bullying).
See a Fred Post on the Forums, Post a flame Post just to wind him up(nobody cares because it is Fred, others do it so why can’t I?) (Yet again this is just bullying)
‘Your spelling is atrocious and your Grammar leaves a lot to be desired’. I find this laughable that people feel they can be vulgar enough, to others, to point this out, especially when their Posts are far from perfect. I do, in Game, correct someone’s spelling, as he has asked me to help him improve his English skills. I have also told him that if, at any time, he asks me to stop, I will.
‘You are a newb, your opinion is worthless’. We are all equal here and are all entitled to our opinions. It doesn’t hurt to be polite and respectful, to each other.
There are many other instances of things I have seen and I am sure other people have got many other stories. The question I asked myself is, ‘Is this acceptable’?
I also used what I have seen on the positive side of things to counter balance against the negatives. Just because some people are Faction Leaders doesn’t necessarily mean that they are a productive Member of the Community. I also don’t believe that because you do good things that it allows you to get away with the opposite.
So I used all these sort of things to make my decision on these people when I voted for each. Now, some of those I vote Yes, for, didn’t get banned and some of those I voted No, for, were banned. The Admin Team is a democracy and that is the way of a Voting System. As I have already told some people:
I may not agree with the outcome, of a vote, but I agree to abide by that outcome.
People may agree or disagree with my way of making that decision, but, at the time, it was my decision to make. The ones I voted Yes, for, were ones that I thought did things purely and utterly for their own pleasure and with a total disregard for other people’s feelings.
RE: Official Notice - Development Team Strike - Haste - 07-14-2016
Many of the players who signed the strike feel the terms were poorly chosen and weren't around to discuss them prior to them being posted. Maybe I'll come up with something official-sounding that translates roughly to "treat these six players like any other six sanctioned players" - which in turn means they'd be able to request evidence. That could then replace the OP's "we can demand your firstborn child if you agree" terms.
RE: Official Notice - Development Team Strike - Ayman - 07-15-2016
(07-01-2016, 04:00 PM)Durandal Wrote: The men and women of the Discovery Freelancer development team have observed the recent actions of the server’s administration and cannot in good conscience continue work on the mod at this time. We find the recent matters regarding both the bans of Impy, Karst, Lythrilux, Mephistoles, Snoopy, and Swifty as well as the administration’s attitude towards any dissent on the subject deeply concerning. In addition, we find transparency and justification for the bans to be lacking. We do not find the canned and pre-prepared statements given by the administration to be sufficient in justifying their decision. Finally, we find the administration’s response of “If you don’t like us, leave” to be damaging to the game environment that we in the development team attempt to cultivate.and is that the right thing to do ?
I think what you guys did is nothing more than stabbing Disco in the heart.
when this drama started i was very disappointing it was like watching a repeated story of all the servers that are gone with the wind in the past and i was like watching a nightmare of Disco falling down but you know what ? no it will not its greater than this and it will remain over every hater nose because we still are able to have fun no matter how some try to destroy the fun we are still able to enjoy it and have fun, and we will.
There is always a law and the soul of the law which is the space that an admin can move on and decide to give the minimum punishment or the maximum and i think this is what the admins did. I might not know the people who was banned personally but i know the feed back i was getting when i came new to this server and the kind of troubles and problems and i dont think that all the people i met who spoke about it they lie specially that i have faced myself what i have been warned from but to be honest also i have heard that some of the people who cause troubles in the community are in their way to change for the better but if the decision of the ban is not an individual decision and the group admins decided to ban them and specially after the ""Development Team Strike"" i think i agree with the admins i might not have agreed 100% if there was no ""Development Team Strike"" not because the banned people are innocent no because equity doesn't always mean justice, but with what i see explains a lot and makes me realize many things that i did not notice as kind of new here.
When i came here new i have had an being attacked and assumed and lots and lots of drama in the feedback and many many other things that no need to mention in details which made me very sad that i am not at all the trouble maker kind made me feel so disappointed and frustrated and helpless and then i decided to talking to one of the admins which in my opinion is the best person i have seen in here we was talking about how some people are accusing me of breaking the rules and do meta gaming and causing me many troubles and making me not having fun anymore in the game and its too much pressure and drama for me as i play freelancer online since 2003/2004 and i have never seen such a drama like in here and he also told me that the admin team dont punish people out of the blue without evidence and his words and his explanation to me was the reason why i am still here and why i didnt became a victim of meta gaming and left the server after the fun is gone. back to early 90's when i used to run IRC chat server i know how hard it was to keep thousands of people on track with the rules so what we used to do is ""every one is guilty until the opposite is proven"" it was not 100% fair from the narrow opinion but thinking outside the box it was fair in the opinion of the full picture
Simply i have had high expectations for the admins and when i was accused of cheating and got all my chars removed what happened did not meet my expectations so it was a big disappointment to me but after time i realized that the admin team do not have any bad intention to anyone or to the server and yes i have to prove that i dont cheat and the money they saw going back and forth between chars and base with alot of changing names is suspicious and i have to prove its not cheating specially that the admins have many more important things to do other than tracing stupid money transfer.
And after reading everything very carefully now about the people who got banned and everyone comment i can now say my opinion with all my respect to everyone and no hard feelings the bad intention comes from ""Development Team Strike""
RE: Official Notice - Development Team Strike - sasapinjic - 07-15-2016
Quote:People who like to walk the grey area of the Rules and when called out about it, state ‘It doesn’t say I can’t’. Yet when someone pulls a like stunt against them, they are the first to put in a Violation Report.
A handful of PvP Aces log in to the Game, find a small Group who are having fun and then decimate then in about 30 seconds, shout some nonsense lines in System Chat, Planet dive and log off. They have had their 30 seconds of fun, ruined the fun of the others. I have no problem with people having fun but not solely at the detriment of everyone else.
‘Hey, it is Fred Blogs, log your <insert Ship type> lets gank him.
Hey, Fred has logged with some of his mates, nobody likes him lets gank him. (this is, in its simplest form, bullying).
See a Fred Post on the Forums, Post a flame Post just to wind him up(nobody cares because it is Fred, others do it so why can’t I?) (Yet again this is just bullying)
‘Your spelling is atrocious and your Grammar leaves a lot to be desired’. I find this laughable that people feel they can be vulgar enough, to others, to point this out, especially when their Posts are far from perfect. I do, in Game, correct someone’s spelling, as he has asked me to help him improve his English skills. I have also told him that if, at any time, he asks me to stop, I will.
‘You are a newb, your opinion is worthless’. We are all equal here and are all entitled to our opinions. It doesn’t hurt to be polite and respectful, to each other.
@ St.Denis explanation seems enough to me .
Certain user had a long history of bungling , rule braking , and generally cousing much more trouble than they contribute , but since they were leaders/veterans that was tolerated for some time , and now that is no longer tolerated all this mess stared , correct ?
EDIT :
I meant bullying , not bungling , lol !
RE: Official Notice - Development Team Strike - Thyrzul - 07-15-2016
(07-15-2016, 01:33 PM)sasapinjic Wrote: @ St.Denis explanation seems enough to me .
Certain user had a long history of bungling , rule braking , and generally cousing much more trouble than they contribute , but since they were leaders/veterans that was tolerated for some time , and now that is no longer tolerated all this mess stared , correct ?
St.Denis' explaination pretty much included that no matter the amount of contribution, for the sake of fairness, they were punished for their alleged wrongdoings regardless. I haven't found anything in his post indicating those punished caused much more trouble than they contributed.
RE: Official Notice - Development Team Strike - St.Denis - 07-15-2016
(07-15-2016, 01:37 PM)Thyrzul Wrote:St.Denis' explaination pretty much included that no matter the amount of contribution, for the sake of fairness, they were punished for their alleged wrongdoings regardless. I haven't found anything in his post indicating those punished caused much more trouble than they contributed.
I thought I said, that when I came to vote, that I weighed up the positives vs the negatives.
Quote:I also used what I have seen on the positive side of things to counter balance against the negatives. Just because some people are Faction Leaders doesn’t necessarily mean that they are a productive Member of the Community. I also don’t believe that because you do good things that it allows you to get away with the opposite.
RE: Official Notice - Development Team Strike - Thyrzul - 07-15-2016
My apologies then.
RE: Official Notice - Development Team Strike - Irwin - 07-16-2016
So why were these people put on the list? Are we going to get an answer to that? Does Thyrzul know why it was proposed that he be Shadowbanned? Have you /still/ withheld that information from the banned players?
RE: Official Notice - Development Team Strike - Stoner_Steve - 07-16-2016
(07-16-2016, 01:42 AM)Irwin Wrote: So why were these people put on the list? Are we going to get an answer to that? Does Thyrzul know why it was proposed that he be Shadowbanned? Have you /still/ withheld that information from the banned players?
The admins are claiming that while no rule was violated per-say, in order to maintain the health of the server, the admins voted to ban them.