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+--- Thread: Discovery Economy Reformation (/showthread.php?tid=37396)
Discovery Economy Reformation - Elsdragon - 04-09-2010
Quote:however, are you asking for trading to be retro-fitted? shouldn't the efforts of someone who likes trading, and can fit it in around rl, be rewarded a little bit more than someone who can only trade one hour a month?I do, but the guy who gets in very little trade time should be able to support himself, at the very least. When I can make more cash by shooting NPC traders for an hour than by tradeing and looseing most of the already low potential yield, something is screwed up.
Discovery Economy Reformation - kuth - 04-09-2010
' Wrote:but having half hour spare here and there, you can make a short run to the next base, and log out... there is always five mins in the day to grind out a little bit of cash.
This tells me you don't understand their points.
No one should have to rely on a spare half hour here and there to ensure they have a cash flow.
I enjoy trading. I RP trade. I run the routes that fit my factions RP. The profits are pitiful. The only way I can make a good cash flow is running my power trade routes and while they are technically inRP, running them over and over and over and over again (and they aren't Point to Point, they are chained) is boring and not really inRP.
Now. As I enjoy RP'n a trader, this doesn't bother me. However, for someone that doesn't like trading, I can see how it is highly annoying, and boring.
Nerfing the hell out of the trade/mining system and increasing the cost of battleships didn't fix the number of them. All it did was create more power traders which then warranted a nerf of the Zoner Guard ID to try to get rid of them. (Guess what? That didn't work either. They are now using no IFF, Interspace ID'd Mastodons. I see them at least three times running my routes in the border worlds and I know which routes they are running because I run the same ones when I need cash. Difference is, they are inRP for me. Not for an Interspace ship.) They still get that battleship inside of a week and by the next week they have the armor for it. Then they proceed to lolwut all around. All the nerfs did was slow them by a week, if that. In addition to making earning credits to pay for your other characters a grind that few like.
The whole reason for this thread is simple:
Disco is slowly becoming a grind fest. Many people will simply leave this server if this trend continues. They are asking for a fix before they reach that point because they enjoy this community/mod.
Saying go trade in convoys ignores the above fact. Yes, it is far more fun in a convoy but if the person doesn't like trading to begin with, convoys aren't likely to help them. Add to that the fact that pirate demands now days can remove 30 mins to an hour of a persons playtime in a matter of maybe five minutes and you see why these people are annoyed.
Discovery Economy Reformation - Blaze - 04-09-2010
' Wrote:[color=#000000]
[color=#999999]The whole reason for this thread is simple:
[color=#000000][size=small][color=#999999]
Disco is slowly becoming a grind fest. Many people will simply leave this server if this trend continues. They are asking for a fix before they reach that point because they enjoy this community/mod.
This is the Problem
Discovery Economy Reformation - Leo - 04-09-2010
Cross said exactly what this thread is about within one post.
Kudos do you Cross, you're now my hero.
~Leo
Discovery Economy Reformation - tyro - 04-09-2010
I said above, that I like trading and it is truth.
Sometimes ago I tried to start FL server with another gaming community. I made server, I wrote tons of topics about rules, factions, etc, etc. And, it failed.
The beginning was good, 30 accounts in two days, 15 players each evening during first week, mostly friends. Easy talks in natural language. Nice.
But after two weeks most of people was bored and stop playing. They said this game is boring, because you have to trade, trade, trade, to get anything. They wanted to try bigger ships, they wanted big battles, events, factions, different chars etc... But all this need credits and hard work.
I wanted that server to be similar to official one, so I couldn't give them money just that. They didn't want money this way, because it would not be fair. Maybe if I would setup fun server with millions of start credits, it would be different. So, it failed.
Many hours of hard work to setup everything, and also real money to rent a server, everything was for nothing, because of this game was boring for my friends. Sad.
I didn't understand why they don't like this game.
But after reading what people say here, I start to understand one of the reasons...
Discovery Economy Reformation - NonSequitor - 04-09-2010
' Wrote:
Disco is slowly becoming a grind fest. Many people will simply leave this server if this trend continues. They are asking for a fix before they reach that point because they enjoy this community/mod.
Saying go trade in convoys ignores the above fact. Yes, it is far more fun in a convoy but if the person doesn't like trading to begin with, convoys aren't likely to help them. Add to that the fact that pirate demands now days can remove 30 mins to an hour of a persons playtime in a matter of maybe five minutes and you see why these people are annoyed.
Yep- this guy's got it pinned down. For the record, I enjoy mining. Or rather, I can tolerate it in small doses.
If credits were worth more (lowered prices for ships and equipment) or if credits were easier to come by (increased trading profits), we'd have a good less moaning and groaning in game and on the forums.
So, a pirate snags you and empties your cargo hold. A bummer, yes, but not a real game breaker, because it's easier to recover lost profits - if credits are worth more or are easier to amass. Thus it's easier for the trader/miner to express a creatively inspired RP "rage", instead of the grudge-laden OOC rage.
Some things for the devs and the community at large to ponder on:
1. Is it justified to penalize players with credit-intensive RP ambitions, who also have limited game time?
2. Is an economical system (low profit, high expense), that encourages OOC grudge matches (i.e. an hour of work negated by a 5-minute pew-pew bonanza), necessarily a good thing?
Discovery Economy Reformation - Gaz83 - 04-09-2010
' Wrote:Nerfing the hell out of the trade/mining system and increasing the cost of battleships didn't fix the number of them. All it did was create more power traders which then warranted a nerf of the Zoner Guard ID to try to get rid of them. (Guess what? That didn't work either. They are now using no IFF, Interspace ID'd Mastodons. I see them at least three times running my routes in the border worlds and I know which routes they are running because I run the same ones when I need cash. Difference is, they are inRP for me. Not for an Interspace ship.) They still get that battleship inside of a week and by the next week they have the armor for it. Then they proceed to lolwut all around. All the nerfs did was slow them by a week, if that. In addition to making earning credits to pay for your other characters a grind that few like.This.
' Wrote:Disco is slowly becoming a grind fest. Many people will simply leave this server if this trend continues. They are asking for a fix before they reach that point because they enjoy this community/mod.Also this.
Cross has hit the nail on the head with this.
Discovery Economy Reformation - dodike - 04-09-2010
We need traders, otherwise pirates will hang around Manhattan just to pick a fight with lawfulls and the game will turn into cops vs robbers.
What if we made trading enjoyable? So people have fun while trading? Something like:
Random player: "Hey, hanging around Malta and chatting is boring, lets go for a trade run and RP with pirates"
Not that I have any idea how to accomplish this. Any ideas how to make trading fun?
Discovery Economy Reformation - mjolnir - 04-09-2010
' Wrote:
Disco is slowly becoming a grind fest. Many people will simply leave this server if this trend continues. They are asking for a fix before they reach that point because they enjoy this community/mod.
This rather pathetic proclamation has a few issues:
What do people need a lot of money for?
a) capships with expensive armor
b) many characters
Both of these are optional, you don't need either of them to "be somebody" in disco or to be able to play.
A lot of new players that join will always see getting a big ship as the ultimate goal when they start. For a determined mind like that it's not a problem (and never was) to get a Battleship during a week of normal playing. (btw. Battleship prices are exactly the same as 2 years ago in 4.84)
So we focused the group that needs a lot of money to at least a bit experienced players who either want a bigger ship/armor or more characters. Neither of these is going to leave the community because it takes them long time to buy cap 8 or buy their 20th VHF. Simply because neither of these does in a significant way limit their ability to play. But yes they are going to whine about it.
============================================
' Wrote:Some things for the devs and the community at large to ponder on:
1. Is it justified to penalize players with credit-intensive RP ambitions, who also have limited game time?
2. Is an economical system (low profit, high expense), that encourages OOC grudge matches (i.e. an hour of work negated by a 5-minute pew-pew bonanza), necessarily a good thing?
1. How are those players penalized compared to other players?
They aren't.
It's their own will to want something that costs a lot. I'm sure any player can think of something that he could use a lot of money for and come come with good reason.
There's no direct way we can make that will make some people earn much more than others easily. Because the others will simply use it as well.
For this reasons we have (or used to have), prize competitions for best RP story etc. Eventually now you can try to submit SRP that gives the character/faction the money he needs.
2. For pirates to actually pirate (and not just pew pew) there needs to be some bonus (= money to get), for traders to actually care about being pirated, they need to fear to loose something. If each pirate asked for 10 credits, then any trader would pay without trying to escape/shoot/bargain => nobody will pirate.
I, however, do agree that there should be some sort of limit as to how much a pirate asks for in the server rules.
How much it should be is another question, I'd say it should actually be cargo size related. For example 500 credits per cargo unit.
==============================================================
' Wrote:We need traders, otherwise pirates will hang around Manhattan just to pick a fight with lawfulls and the game will turn into cops vs robbers.
As mentioned before, trading keeps the server alive. Give everyone 200 mil per hour profit.. and 99% of all player interaction will be pvp in fixed locations.
The issue is not that making money takes time. The issue is that making money should be fun and encourage player interaction.
There are now at least 4 ways to make money:
- trading
Dunno how to make it more fun, any ideas?
The fact that more trader ships (eventually with escorts) are safer does encourage interaction. The fact that traders can actually be pirated does that as well.
- mining
Again dunno how to make it more fun, open to your proposals on that.
The current system does encourage player interaction, because mining in team gives much better profits as well as being safer.
Note also that mining as a way of actually making money is something new in 4.85.
- NPC cargo pirating
Maybe increase NPC defenses to make it more fun?
It encourages teamplay, because when one is shooting the transports and another taking goods away the profit increases. Also you get better profit when landing on bases that are hostile to you, so it encourages Pirate-Junker interaction.
- missions
I'd say it's rather fun as long as you can actually die doing them.
Encourages interaction because only anti-cap missions give you reasonable ammount of money and those are very hard to do alone.
Here I'd say the profits can be increased a lot so it offers a real alternative.
==============================
@ Maggot
People like interaction with other people. That's why they play online in the first place. When on server with very low population they have to trade a lot, which means flying trough empty space, it would be boring.
On the other hand if you give them a lot of starting money, they would have little reason to stay logged on the server because getting anything will be easy. So it's rather very hard to start a new server.
Discovery Economy Reformation - Cawdor - 04-09-2010
Well, mjolnir, while I second everything you just posted there, I'm afraid I will have to tell you that it was a waste of time.
This thread is going no where. It will have an impact on nothing. And even those who take their daily dump on it for the sake of it won't read it as soon as a new page begins. So let 'em go on spamming. No one cares. All points were already made.