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Taxing 2x - Printable Version

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Taxing 2x - Elvin - 09-19-2008

Oh common, this is out of topic, dont kil each other:D

To the topic... Well I thought so, but its kinda stupid, everyone can use it then. If there will be 4 piarte bombers and trader, one and every each of them can ask him for 4 mils, and if he refuses to pay on the third, they weill all just shoot him to death...

And how was the good example told... Its totaly the same
[LN]A: Drop the cargo and pay 4 millions fine.
[Smuggler]X *Drops th e cargo and pays*
[LN]B: Ok and now 4 milions fine to me.
[LN]C: And to me.
[LN]D:And 4 mill to me as well..
[LN]... " .....


So you guys thing it would be fine, if thye are not in group?
I think not, It doesnt really matters if we are talking about the pirates, all tagged [Whatewer] or LN, or RoS, or BAF, or KNF or....

PS> I have picked LN because thez have biggest count of smugglers not cause something like that happened with LN (I hope)


Taxing 2x - hribek - 09-19-2008

Well.

If a bunch of pirates demand money from the trader repeatedly one after another, it is silly. But I've never seen such case myself. However, some traders are capable of doing only about three things: getting bored when trading undisturbed, laughing at pirates ("you n00b") when they occasionally let them slip away and finally ... whining like babies when they get pirated.

Well, whine on, I can't stop you, anyway.
If the trader still does get some profit from selling the goods after being pirated (I strongly dislike the word "taxed") ... then the pirates are way too fair. Demanding more money than what the _selling_ price of the commodities is, might be considered ridiculous because of the fact that (oh yes) the trader cannot die for good, so he doesn't care.

For the self-pronounced traders that can't do the math: demanding more money than the buying price of your load is perfectly okay. (Yes, I met at least three who told me to kill them because they insisted on the opposite). Heck ... now is it a piracy abuse or a PvP abuse? You tell me:).

A thing I'd like to point out: deciding here how much all pirates should take from all traders is as ridiculous as the original topic.

Do I pirate to earn for food, fuel and repair costs? Just gimme a few pieces of your goods or a bunch of credit cards ... 100k here, 100k there, I don't care, I'm happy that I got something.

Do I pirate because I want to get rich? Then I want at least half of what you earn per run, Trader! (Otherwise it ain't worth pirating for me).

Or the case when things are personal (Lane Hackers robbing IC or Ageira vessels, for instance; or a trader that ran from a pirate once already) ... "do I pirate to BANKRUPT YOUR TRADING CORPORATION?
Heck, hand over your WHOLE LOAD and throw me a bribe so that I don't rip your turrets off!"

Back on topic: group of pirates taxing a trader: the best thing to do is make up a reasonable amount (if the pirates totally outgun the trader, up to 100% of his cargo's worth) and have one of the pirates to receive, then split the amount ... the fairness of this lies in the fact that the pirates don't delay the trader for too long. Time is money, and traders on a run earn around $100 per cargo unit/minute, so an Adv. Train loses half a million for every 60 seconds of delay.

Oh and no, lawfuls won't repeat-fine a smuggler.
1) They think of themselves as the good guys (optional for pirates)
2) When the smuggler drops the suff and pays a fine, he's clean and you've got nothing to fine him for. Pirates will rob a Trader as long as he has something...
3) They can fine smugglers while pointing those HUUUGE intimidating annihilating Cruiser Forward Guns at them.
Let the LPI do the job. (or help them get more employees to patrol Liberty space, not just barbecue in Manhattan's orbit)
For other Houses: LPI -> local police, CFGs -> capships overall)


Taxing 2x - Geisha_Maiko - 09-20-2008

This was brought up before, in a past post.

In my case, pirates would staged at eash and every jump hole.

Do the math : NB (1) (2) Sigma13 (3) (4) Chugoku (5) (6) Hokkaido (7) (8) Kyushu.

8 jump holes....times that by the 2 to 8 mil they are robbing you for.
Pretty soon, your running your trade route into the Negitive.



Taxing 2x - Elvin - 09-20-2008

' Wrote:This was brought up before, in a past post.

In my case, pirates would staged at eash and every jump hole.

Do the math : NB (1) (2) Sigma13 (3) (4) Chugoku (5) (6) Hokkaido (7) (8) Kyushu.

8 jump holes....times that by the 2 to 8 mil they are robbing you for.
Pretty soon, your running your trade route into the Negitive.

I dont really thinky anone would pay you 8 millions, and surely not more than once:)But for all I care, the Niobium-Diamond route should be ruined.

To Hribek:
Why so offinsive, Im not flaming anyone, I never really was a trader, but I have saw certain people doing this and I simply thing its very stupid... not aginst rules yeah, but great way how to annoy people who cant kill you.

PS: Houbo.:D


Taxing 2x - Baltar - 09-20-2008

@ Coin:

1. When you complain about a "group" of people ... you're gonna get people in that group a bit ticked off. Think of it this way (doesn't matter if its just a few people you're referring to) if you say something about an ethnic group or a racial group ... you think you'll get silence and understanding from members of those groups? If you spout racist stereotypes ... what should you expect in return? By the simple fact you are referring to "pirates" in general ... you are in effect lumping everyone that has a pirate character into this umbrella. Instead ... point to specifics. Give examples. Saying all Native Americans are drunkards is not gonna make Native Americans very happy and will likely draw some form of response. I'm Cherokee by the way. Instead of classifying a "group" of people as OORP ... try giving example of poor behavior by specific characters. Nobody likes it when I go generalizing traders and bounty hunters .. and I get the "nominative accusative form" in response when I go to those generalities. So practice what you preach please.

2. Yes ... but supply lines are VERY long. And many aboard those ships crossing the Atlantic died before reaching the Americas due to disease and starvation. The pirates lived in the region ... while the British operated a small ... mind you a small ... navy to attempt to control the area they were not really capable of stopping piracy. By the way, piracy continues today ... even with our high tech ships and equipment.

3. True about the french. They usually hang on the coat tails of other nations to claim victory. Oops ... did we just generalize? As for the lesson on European history ... has nothing to do with the Americas. Piracy was (and is) everywhere ... the Caribbean was just the most renowned location for it.

4. Thank you for this compliment. Nicest thing I've read all day. And for the small freighters I either ignore them or request 100k to 250k. Believe it or not ... I've actually donated to a few trying to start out. One thing about piracy is you do not want the trader to go out of business. If he goes out of business ... so do you. This is not about attrition. You don't wanna destroy the economy ... that's what terrorists do. You just wanna get enough to profit yourself while they keep making money. What's annoying is seeing the Tanker carrying 5000 units back and forth and making 10 mil per round trip and then he complains about 500k you ask him for ... then he places a 50 mil bounty on you.

5. The best trader finds a route that is "No Risk" ... in the area of safety you have various degrees of risk. While your time to get from point A to point B increases ... your risk decreases. But ... with a reduction in risk, the amount of loss to pirates is reduced or eliminated by taking a less risky route. So in effect ... it is actually more profitable to avoid risk or at least reduce the risk. If you choose to take "Extreme Risk" in your travels ... you should expect to pay out the nose. If you know the Caribbean is a hot bed of pirates and you go there anyway ... you might as well include the tax into your budget. To reduce your tax you've gotta reduce your risk.

A. Extreme Risk -- Diamond / Niobium run using both jump holes
B. High Risk -- Diamond / Niobium run using only the Sigma 13 / New Berlin jump hole
C. Moderate Risk -- Diamond / Niobium run using only the trade lanes through Sigma 13
D. Low Risk -- Diamond / Niobium run through Liberty or Bretonia thus avoiding Sigma 13
E. No Risk -- Some trade route that pirates are not aware of (these are the smart, creative traders ... the entrepreneurs)

6. So I gotta adjust my role play so power-traders can make a profit? And because Bounty Hunters are shooting up Junkers does not mean the Junkers "started" the fight. That's errant logic based on bias. The bias being that a lawful considers Bounty Hunters to be good and thus could not initiate hostilities and thus its the Junkers fault for being shot at. Oh yeah ... forgot to mention. Ever since we got this new cheat-detector online ... mining scraps has been completely nerfed. I used to fill a Collector's hold in a couple minutes shooting up the junk. That's when 15-20 or so units could be beamed aboard with every shot you made with your guns. Now ... you get 1 unit with every shot. So to fill up a Collector with scrap metal takes about 30 minutes or more. So much for role playing Miners and Junkers.



Taxing 2x - jpo - 09-20-2008

' Wrote:Heya

I just wanna ask, Tarder , lets call him X meets 2 pirates with the same tag/faction/ID, they are together in that place (Read like standing 50m next to each other) lets call them A and B.

A: Stop and pay 3 millions for passage
X: *pays 3 millions for passage*
A: Thanks.
X:*Starts moving*
B Stop, not so fast, now pay 3 millions for passage to me.

Is that ok?
Thanks for answer in advance, Elvin

posted this in the sig-13 thread, but according to the letter of the law, not allowed:
Quote:6.17 Owners of Pirate IDs have a right to attack:

- Military/Police
- Bounty Hunters
- Trader ships that do not pay for passage
- Unfriendly pirates

You can be taxed in every system on your route however.



Taxing 2x - Tenacity - 09-20-2008

for that much? not generally, unless they're just trying to kill the trader, which is always possible. NPC pirates can straight up attack lawful trade ships, we cant =P

Anyways, Generally when I'm pirating with other people of my faction around (like on my blood dragon), I'll just split the 'normal' fee between me and the other guy. If I charge 2 million, I'll just say "the tax will be one million to each of us" if there's two of us there.


Taxing 2x - Baltar - 09-20-2008

' Wrote:You can be taxed in every system on your route however.

Ah ... so if I tax you in Sigma 13 and follow you into Chugoku ... I can tax you in Chugoku ... follow you to Hokkaido and tax you again ... then on to Kyushu and tax you again. Then I get to hang out 15k from the planet for you to return and start the tax for each system on the way back to New Berlin.

I like it. 500k per system ... hmm.


Taxing 2x - Coin - 09-20-2008

' Wrote:@ Coin:

1. When you complain about a "group" of people ... you're gonna get people in that group a bit ticked off. Think of it this way (doesn't matter if its just a few people you're referring to) if you say something about an ethnic group or a racial group ... you think you'll get silence and understanding from members of those groups? If you spout racist stereotypes ... what should you expect in return? By the simple fact you are referring to "pirates" in general ... you are in effect lumping everyone that has a pirate character into this umbrella. Instead ... point to specifics. Give examples. Saying all Native Americans are drunkards is not gonna make Native Americans very happy and will likely draw some form of response. I'm Cherokee by the way. Instead of classifying a "group" of people as OORP ... try giving example of poor behavior by specific characters. Nobody likes it when I go generalizing traders and bounty hunters .. and I get the "nominative accusative form" in response when I go to those generalities. So practice what you preach please.

3. True about the french. They usually hang on the coat tails of other nations to claim victory. Oops ... did we just generalize?


Ah, hey, its nice to know i'm not the only imperfect one around here.

and this is sooo off-topic, but its interesting...

* to discuss a group of peeps and say they have such-and-such characteristic is to pander to a stereotype.
but to make it about a specific person constitutes a flame... ah well, damned if i do, damned if i don't....

* traders and raiders will ALWAYS bitch about each other - one follows the path of peace, the other, war. The Tao of Freelancer, i guess.

/offtopic.end

as one of the traders with routes that a pirate has yet to suss out, i wholeheartedly support the taxing of those power-traders on the 'n00b' run, and i'd like to suggest that the tax on those guys be raised to 5m. I dont do that run, and so my profits are lower. When someone asks for 3m, i think, 'hold on - thats the profit for this run, making this a wasted trip'. But taxes of 500k, 1mil or even 2mil now that i got a bigger cargo hold, i pay without quibbling. when i was in a 2000 hold transport, 3mil was like 'woah-too steep!' as it wiped the profit from several runs, and i would have to go and find another route to make it up, or risk getting taxed again on the next run, putting me further into the red.

Baltar, if you really are one of those pirates who actually hand out cash to impoverished traders i salute you. I can't stand the power-traders who go mad on making money, and then buy a cap, and pirate themselves (I remember one person, name witheld, who i helped out, and then he was in his corsair GB, with an order tag, nomad turrets AND A CIVILIAN ID - i mean, whats the point of coming to the RP server to do that?)


Taxing 2x - Baltar - 09-21-2008

@ Coin: Things tend to get off topic here quite a lot. But I'm not the one driving them off topic. My argument is to not lump us all into stereotypes ... which is what most of these anti-pirate threads do. There are presently 2 or 3 threads going simultaneously regarding this very topic and they are each badmouthing pirates and trying to limit pirate behavior.

If someone is actually violating a rule ... there's a violation report section for this. This and other threads along this topic result in a pirate trial by forum. Knock it off.

Solution: Don't complain in forums. Instead, hire mercenaries and post bounties. This creates more role play and reduces the flames.

Quote:... But taxes of 500k, 1mil or even 2mil now that i got a bigger cargo hold, i pay without quibbling. when i was in a 2000 hold transport, 3mil was like 'woah-too steep!' as it wiped the profit from several runs, and i would have to go and find another route to make it up, or risk getting taxed again on the next run, putting me further into the red.

This has been raised before. People used to complain in the forums about the "2 mil or die" being OORP. There have been some that say its OORP to ask for credits instead of cargo. I'm done arguing this point. Pirates will ask what they wanna ask.

But you do have a point here. That being if you can't pay it ... you just can't pay it. I've had traders tell me they could not pay and instead they countered my demand with something else. I accept on most occasions because I don't wanna wipe the guy out ... I want him to keep making money so I can keep pirating him. Then you also have those traders that are cheapos ... these are the ones that are like level 70+ that claim they cannot afford 2 mil or even 500k. And you have the traders that say "I'd rather die than pay" and of course those that just plain ignore you or F1.

I grant you there are a many pirates out there that have no concept of mathematics. No finance experts ever became pirates (that I know of). So the ones that ask for too much. I guess you'd better either pay or fight your way out ... taking a chance of losing your cargo too.

The way I go about this ... I make a demand ... you can't pay ... ok ... what can you afford ... cool I'll take that.

But ... if you scream and yell and argue and totally disrespect me ... I'm gonna demand 100% of your cargo. Don't care if I can't fit it in my hold or not. What I cannot fit I'll destroy. Treat me nice and I'll do the same in return. Treat me like crap ... well ... expect me to treat you the same.

Quote:Baltar, if you really are one of those pirates who actually hand out cash to impoverished traders i salute you. I can't stand the power-traders who go mad on making money, and then buy a cap, and pirate themselves (I remember one person, name witheld, who i helped out, and then he was in his corsair GB, with an order tag, nomad turrets AND A CIVILIAN ID - i mean, whats the point of coming to the RP server to do that?)

Yes ... I do help out now and then.

I really cannot stand those that do the goodie goodie trader thing just to pocket the credits for their uber-ships and then they all of a sudden are something totally different than what they started as.

All my characters begin their journey with what they will be in mind. For example ... if my character's gonna be a Liberty Rogue. First thing I do when I undock my starflea is hit the police storage containers next to Manhattan. I start shootin up bounty hunters, police, navy and such until my rep gets to where I can dock and take missions for Liberty Rogues. Then I take nothing but Liberty Rogue missions till I have money for upgrades and the Liberty Rogue ID. I actually flipping work my way from ship to ship.

I do have trade ships ... but they are all either smugglers or Junkers. I don't use lawful traders to transfer funds to an unlawful vessel. I do however transfer from my smugglers now and then ... just enough to get the right ID and setup.

I have a Junker Cruiser ... the cruiser is a Rheinland Pirate Cruiser (which needs a serious name change) ... this character has been a Junker/Smuggler from the very beginning. First chance he had he bought the Smuggler ID ... then the Junker ID ... now his role has one purpose ... to protect Junker bases and fellow Junkers. He does not attack unless being attacked or unless a Junker base or fellow Junker is attacked. That is with exception of Xenos.

No I haven't written any story lines to explain my characters. I probably should ... but I don't have any.