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+--- Thread: Espionage (/showthread.php?tid=126075)
RE: Espionage - Sabru - 02-13-2015
(02-13-2015, 02:21 AM)Scourgeclaw Wrote: You're intentionally avoiding an interaction, while reaping some of the rewards of an actual interaction
why is this even a question?
this.
i dont think its that much of a problem, if its a tagged faction ship and you have an idea that its lurking somewhere. but untagged ghost ships would be stretching legality a bit imo.
RE: Espionage - sindroms - 02-13-2015
It highly depends on the situation. I can see how cloaks being used can be justified in some cases, while in others- cannot.
Saying that quasi-lawfuls should not do illegal activities when they know there are lawfuls around is pretty much saying that all smugglers should do their stuff when the server is empty. It completely degenerates the reason we have cloaks in the first place.........why do we have them again?
Igiss did mention that Discovery Freelancer would never implement cloaks due to lore and gameplay reasons, but that got kicked in the head somewhere along the way.
My problem with cloaks is that they have no countermeasure, apart from the obvious. From people following participants of group battles, only to uncloak when they are about to dock and telling them that they have fled the battle, to people using cloaked untagged ships in order to spy on other IDs that they would normally not be able to catch, which is the point of said IDs.
I remember the times when you'd be smuggling with a Junker and a LSF indie would pop onto my scanner. I frantically would mash the eject cargo button, before shooting the cardi I had been hauling until now.
Me: Greetings, agent.
LSF: Hey, man, how's things?
Me: ..........good...... (QQ)
Now it is just a battleship or whatever uncloaking behind me and ordering me to drop the cargo.
Or just a surprise entry in the Rheinland criminal database.
Also, the cloak sound and all. I listen to music, for example. That does not go hand in hand.
RE: Espionage - sindroms - 02-13-2015
Also. The overall situation only punishes factions.
Especially quasi-lawful ones. If you are an indy, you couldn't care less about repercussions, since you can simply rename.
Not only factions end up having to tag their ships, allowing this nonsense to be done much easier, but also cannot do anything in the case of being caught.
Need any more reasons not to bother with smuggling and go back to mining?
RE: Espionage - Sarawr!? - 02-13-2015
Using stealth vessels to spy on your enemies and/or suspicious ships or groups of ships, is a valid tactic, it makes sense inRP and it will continue to happen so long as cloaks are a part of this mod; and even if they're removed, spying and inRP harassment will still happen too.
While I was initially opposed to cloaking devices being added to the game (some of you might remember that far back), I am also opposed to ending the use of cloaking devices purely to appease people who wish to escape the inRP consequences of their in-character activities.
However; a cloak ship is not the only means to use to spy on enemies, and I do certainly believe that cloak ships should not be used in a manner in which there is zero interaction between two given parties, using cloak ships as a substitute for "Camera ships" is not okay.
As for "Espionage" scenarios -- these should always be two way encounters that involve both parties ACTUALLY INTERACTING with each other.
Oh and as a final note; using untagged cloak ships is legitimate as well, so long as there is some sort of roleplay in which an official faction does something like hire the ship's captain to complete a contract or some kind of thing like that, elsewise I do agree that untagged ships shouldn't be used to gain an official faction an edge.
RE: Espionage - Pinko - 02-13-2015
(02-13-2015, 02:21 AM)Scourgeclaw Wrote: You're intentionally avoiding an interaction, while reaping some of the rewards of an actual interaction
why is this even a question?
Because you're using ressources that exist within the game to do such.
Acquiring the cloak in itself is an interaction, and you reap the benefits of this investment/interaction afterwards.
Also, I agree with Sarah's post 100%
RE: Espionage - sindroms - 02-13-2015
Using cloaks to spy on enemy IDs is legit. Spying on IDs which get their fun out of being shady but not hostile is another.
We expect official factions not to do something stupid with cloaks for their own sake. It is currently the fastest way to get stripped of officialdom if the admin team deems that your impact on the server as a group is hindering roleplay in general. The actual problem are, as said, the untagged ships doing this.
The thing is, all we can hope to do in this case is to have faith in lawful factions to look at the context of whatever report they get from a cloaked indie. Whether or not it should be used, RP or not.
In the end, it is not the cloaking ship that is at fault. It is whoever is using that material as material for RP.
RE: Espionage - Sarawr!? - 02-13-2015
As an addendum to my earlier post, this conversation snippet sums things up pretty nicely I think.
Pinko: I don't mind cloaks and I think they are neat roleplay tools
Sarawr!?: yeah if the people using them aren't
Sarawr!?: TOTAL SCRUBS
RE: Espionage - MÃmir - 02-13-2015
I think it's fine, as long as it is within reason. Unlawful bases and jump holes should be a no-go, smugglers would have no chance to play the game. "Regular" smugglers are pretty limited in where they can sell their goods and how they can get to their destination.
RE: Espionage - Gondoros - 02-13-2015
I say leave it as it is, foe a number of reasons
- I see no way to regulate suck behaviour, except for removing cloaks altogether. Can you forbid an untaged ship from using material recorded while cloaked? And if so why would you? For the simple reason that he is not wearing a tag ?
- In connection with the above? Why exactly should things be made easier for smugglers? I fail to see the reasoning. Should the smugglers feel safe when smuggling? Should they only have to worry about the player list when they are smuggling? is that the case here. I mean is that the problem is question : Making smugglers and quasi-lawful factions feel more safe when they are smuggling or performing illegal actions?
- Whatever you do in Disco , implies risk. If you want to mine, trade, smuggle, all these have risks, some more than others, but the reward is in direct relation with the risk. We should leave those risks in place, and imo even make things more risky and thus more interesting and exciting.
Also, for the people that listen to music while playing, a good idea would be to show a --cloaked ship is near-- icon on the screen, aside from the cloak sound.
RE: Espionage - Pinko - 02-13-2015
(02-13-2015, 08:51 AM)sindroms Wrote: Using cloaks to spy on enemy IDs is legit. Spying on IDs which get their fun out of being shady but not hostile is another.
We expect official factions not to do something stupid with cloaks for their own sake. It is currently the fastest way to get stripped of officialdom if the admin team deems that your impact on the server as a group is hindering roleplay in general. The actual problem are, as said, the untagged ships doing this.
The thing is, all we can hope to do in this case is to have faith in lawful factions to look at the context of whatever report they get from a cloaked indie. Whether or not it should be used, RP or not.
In the end, it is not the cloaking ship that is at fault. It is whoever is using that material as material for RP.
I wouldn't say that, let me make an hypothetical scenario then.
Intelligence faction checks on well known and registered POB owned by semi-lawfuls on their borders. They find that said POB is stashing illegal goods, Semi-lawfuls wake up and become aware that the intelligence faction busted them. Pews or near-pews in the system ensue. Both sides are now on standoff on their own side of the systems, and the first sign of aggression on either side could result in a major political faux-pas and mistake with horrible fallouts and consequences.
Both sides also want intelligence reports on the other side, but can't be caught sending their own ships there. Enters the indie, who can more safely scout for the factions and bring them important, relevant information without raising too many suspicions. Perhaps that'd let the Lawfuls know the semi-lawfuls are moving their goods with a jumpship before being caught for even worse crimes than they were first accused of, but thanks to the indie, peace and safety has been preserved in the nation!
Indies with cloaks have their use for official factions, they can prevent major incidents from worsening in proportions. I personally don't see anything wrong with the scenario I'm presenting here, but perhaps others might think otherwise.