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+--- Thread: Remove POB regulation double standards from rules (/showthread.php?tid=143065)
RE: Remove POB regulation double standards from rules - Laura C. - 09-11-2016
(09-11-2016, 07:27 AM)leonardo_tigre Wrote: How about option 1 with some checks and balances?You propose very difficult system which will make huge burden on staff which is already overloaded. In some cases it would takes weeks before it will be processed. Also I don´t think that admins want to get into position where they will judge bases and their "right to live" unhindered. It will create even more cry about bias, skypefriends and such, which community is full of already.
> these house militaries, police and/or intel factions must proclaim their assault on the base via a yet-unscheduled event (not necessarily iRP publicly-proclaimed), stating the reasons for such and RP proof already present upon thread creation, and attackers must also pay a start-up fee of 1,000,000,000 Credits; thread must then be green-lit by an admin, who will then delegate the task of overseeing the event to a moderator deemed having the least bias for the event; the event will be automatically scheduled to happen 14 days right after a moderator has been elected;
> within the first 7 days, the moderator must make sure base owner has seen the thread and that the base owner MUST post an OORP-reply in the event thread acknowledging that they see it, otherwise the attackers may then attack at any time in the other 7 days and beyond due to absentee base owner;
> when base owner has proven they've seen it, they have until the day of the attack to implement the following steps to negate the attack:
1.) creating a post detailing logical and iRP reasons why the base is not susceptible to attack, which will be analyzed among the moderators and the admins; options include, but are not limited to:
^ dense asteroids, sensor inefficiency due to nebula, etc. environmental hazards, only when they apply
^ base owner hires powerful lawyers that discourages attack without roleplay repercussions
^ base owner hires random freelancers to sabotage the attack from reaching fruition
2.) paying the moderator a sum of credits (who will hand it to the admins), depending on the base's current core level (costs below are not final and are still subject to fairness and balance arguing):
^ Core 1: 1,000,000,000 Credits
^ Core 2: 2,000,000,000 Credits
^ Core 3: 3,000,000,000 Credits
^ Core 4: 4,000,000,000 Credits
^ Core 5: 5,000,000,000 Credits
> should base owner be unable to follow these steps, they can at least pay 500,000,000 Credits to the moderator and then make a post detailing that they've hacked into the comms of the attackers and thus have iRP knowledge of the assault; without this step, it will be a breach of RP to suddenly fortify the base before and during the attack for no apparent reason (which for rules-wise consists of adding weapons platforms and/or shield generators when there weren't any originally, and/or having more than two players actively guarding the base), thus the base owner and the defenders will be sanctioned
EDIT:
> should the attackers be unable to destroy the base on the day of attack due to any number of reasons above and during the assault, they will have to either bump the event thread or create a new one, and repeat the entire process again, with all the prerequisites stated above.
This is just my 2 Credits. Thoughts?
Not to mention - paying a BILLION (!) credits for every illegal base house lawfuls need to remove? Seems you think, that house lawfuls are sitting on tens of billions (like some trading factions). You must be joking with this. And how is that fair considering that POB builder pays nothing for the construction? Costs of core 1 base definitely aren´t billion credits.
Also, you are giving huge advantage to people which has billions of credits on their accounts. Newbies really can´t pay billions of to get special help tools. Not to mention you are settting up situation where those who can´t pay 500 million credits can´t even properly defend their base. That is unacceptable as well.
This system would be totally impractical and unbalanced. Imagine typical situation where house lawfuls kill a base. They find some POB which was constructed without permission and on top of that in location which is not tolerated (typically too close to some NPC base or planet, or in restricted military area). There is no way how this base can be permitted, thus it is subject for destruction. Lawfuls must pay billion credits and then wait god know how long before they are allowed to attack. In the meantime, before staff process the request, the base owner can freely build and fortify his base because until he is contacted by staff, nothing prohibits him from doing this, according to your rules (people don´t wait for attack declaration with building of defense). You are giving POB owner advantage despite it was him who made a mistake, didn´t read the house laws and didn´t contact authorities to get permission. Fun fact, it repeatedly happened that some stubborn player created base repeatedly in such manner.
To sum it up, system you propose is making POB regulation even more tedious and on top of that incredibly expensive. Player owned bases are already exempted from roleplay environment more than enough and protected by rules from roleplay consequencies in many situation and this would make the situation even worse.
RE: Remove POB regulation double standards from rules - Kruger - 09-11-2016
Sorry i misread it, can someone change my vote from 4 to 1? thank you in advance
RE: Remove POB regulation double standards from rules - Demonic - 09-11-2016
(09-11-2016, 10:24 AM)Laura C. Wrote: Player owned bases are already exempted from roleplay environment more than enough and protected by rules from roleplay consequencies in many situation
Roleplay consequences... care to elaborate? I'v seen several PoBs got blown up, even those with great amount of RP, and I'm here only a month or so. I'v seen atacks declared after one forum message requiring payment. Seems to me attacking PoB is not that hard... if you have enough skypefriends who are willing to log your faction, bring BS and shoot.
RE: Remove POB regulation double standards from rules - Laura C. - 09-11-2016
(09-11-2016, 11:08 AM)Demonic Wrote:I was talking about it mainly from lawful position. In case of unlawfuls, yes, there are almost no restrictions. Hostile bases can be killed just with announcement, and in case of neutral parties all you need is to ask for money and when you don´t get it, you can attack freely anywhere in your ZOI, sometimes even on the other side of the Sirius.(09-11-2016, 10:24 AM)Laura C. Wrote: Player owned bases are already exempted from roleplay environment more than enough and protected by rules from roleplay consequencies in many situation
Roleplay consequences... care to elaborate? I'v seen several PoBs got blown up, even those with great amount of RP, and I'm here only a month or so. I'v seen atacks declared after one forum message requiring payment. Seems to me attacking PoB is not that hard... if you have enough skypefriends who are willing to log your faction, bring BS and shoot.
But when it comes to lawfuls, they are significantly restricted. First by rule this thread is about, so they can´t destroy POBs in Outer Regional Space unless it is hostile, regardless if the base is violationg local house laws in any way. Second rule I am reffering too and which applies everywhere, even in house capital system, is that lawfuls can´t see illegal commodities on the bases inRP and make consequencies from it (fining the owner, removing the station etc.).
Result is that patrolling and checking POBs became pointless for lawfuls, because whatever they find inside is not considered as valid for roleplay, and in the outer regional space even illegal bases in general can´t be treated inRP. Which is why I say that POBs are exempted from roleplay significantly already. You can set up a drug shop in a capital system or even next to police station and there will be no consequencies because you are protected by rules.
RE: Remove POB regulation double standards from rules - Mr.Fabulous - 09-11-2016
(09-11-2016, 11:49 AM)Laura C. Wrote: But when it comes to lawfuls, they are significantly restricted. First by rule this thread is about, so they can´t destroy POBs in Outer Regional Space unless it is hostile, regardless if the base is violating local house laws in any way.
That makes me wonder... what's stopping official faction leaders of house militaries/police/intelligence from invoking Faction Right 5? That way, the 'non-hostile' barrier is lifted, and thus they're free to curb-stomp the illegal base.
(09-11-2016, 11:49 AM)Laura C. Wrote: Second rule I am referring too and which applies everywhere, even in house capital system, is that lawfuls can´t see illegal commodities on the bases inRP and make consequences from it (fining the owner, removing the station etc.).
Frankly, if I had the choice and if it were possible, I'd put it as /base command that, for a sum of money, the commodity dealer will hide 'illegal' commodities from players with certain ID/IFF's.
... On the flip side for this server command, police factions can use a /base investigate or something so that they'll be able to reveal these commodities. It will be a diceroll command that can only be done once a day, and uses credits where there's a %chance the police officer can 'break' the dealer, and once the dealer is broken the commodities will be revealed, and there will be a day or two-long cooldown until the base owner can re-apply the hiding command.
RE: Remove POB regulation double standards from rules - Laura C. - 09-11-2016
(09-11-2016, 12:41 PM)leonardo_tigre Wrote:Rules clearly say "House Military, Police, and Intelligence factions may not enforce roleplay consequences upon non-hostile POBs, breaking House Laws or not, within Outer Regional Space." Invoking FR5 is obviously roleplay consequence, not to mention destroying the base. If it would be that easy to go around that rule, it would be pointless.(09-11-2016, 11:49 AM)Laura C. Wrote: But when it comes to lawfuls, they are significantly restricted. First by rule this thread is about, so they can´t destroy POBs in Outer Regional Space unless it is hostile, regardless if the base is violating local house laws in any way.
That makes me wonder... what's stopping official faction leaders of house militaries/police/intelligence from invoking Faction Right 5? That way, the 'non-hostile' barrier is lifted, and thus they're free to curb-stomp the illegal base.
(09-11-2016, 12:41 PM)leonardo_tigre Wrote: Frankly, if I had the choice and if it were possible, I'd put it as /base command that, for a sum of money, the commodity dealer will hide 'illegal' commodities from players with certain ID/IFF's.There are lot of ideas for fancy game features. But we have limited devteam capabilities as well as game engine limitations. So things like this could be interesting, but they will likely never made it into the game.
... On the flip side for this server command, police factions can use a /base investigate or something so that they'll be able to reveal these commodities. It will be a diceroll command that can only be done once a day, and uses credits where there's a %chance the police officer can 'break' the dealer, and once the dealer is broken the commodities will be revealed, and there will be a day or two-long cooldown until the base owner can re-apply the hiding command.
RE: Remove POB regulation double standards from rules - Jack_Henderson - 09-12-2016
Yes, double standards and somewhat not cool.
However, PoBs need protection against Houses that have just extended their influence too far into what is meant to be "not really controlled" space. You named the Omega connection that you would like to police properly, and that is not what it is meant to be. But we likely disagree there, and likely all House players would love the Borderworlds to just be "their space". The rule changes however support my version.
I think the rules are fine.
Let's look at it gameplay-wise.
Who can shoot a Sair fleet sieging a base in Omega Borderworlds? Bretonia, Rheinland, Hessians, IMG, DHC, Kruger... a lot of factions.
Now, let's say a BAF fleet is sieging a base in Omega Borderworld: Rheinland won't shoot, DHC, Kruger, IMG won't, Hessians won't.
What I am saying is: House fleets are shot at a lot less (because it would have consequences), while unlawful fleets are shot at by a lot more people without any consequences.
That's why I think we do not need a change.
The obvious double standards come with more enemies that will try to kill you and the lack of consequences for killing the sieging force.
Edit:
For obvious trolly and idiotic base placement... other solutions are a lot better than shooting. The examples you named defy logic, realism and likely do not even warrant the waste of time of a siege. One post should be enough to deal with it.
RE: Remove POB regulation double standards from rules - Thyrzul - 09-12-2016
Either 1 or 2 because I'm generally against double standards. Voted 1 because I like when enforcement of roleplay consequences is not hindered by magical ooRP barriers.
RE: Remove POB regulation double standards from rules - nOmnomnOm - 09-12-2016
I skimmed through and saw Laura say she/he wants to look into a base and see illegal stuff inside to fine etc.
Hahahahaa good joke. We all know how that had went before. It is a GOOD thing that lawfuls cannot attack or fine a base based on what they see inside. It is a code issue and should stay protected. It is better for the base owner too instead of having to log in to open shop every time. It helps make a damn smuggling station.
But nooooo . You all just want to get ride of stations that provide you with smugglers for you to catch.
I hated this thread from the beginning but now it is getting worse and worse.
You know what I dont like that is still happening?
1) 500 mills or your base dies per month
Who even has that type of money. Base owners are not all rich, you jerks.
2) paying a lawful faction because it says in the laws and when a base gets attacked you guys just sit on your butt and pick your nose.
3) all the players out there who cannot differienciate a good base with valuable rp from a bad one.
house military and police control their HOUSE. Boarderworld are large and uncontrollable. Otherwise you would have claimed it. But no. It is BOARDERWORLD.
Why is there such an attitude that you wish to control and fine everything even more than what you have? Leave it.
I dont see and double standards here. I see it as an argument so that you lawfuls can go back to your mission to abuse and destroy bases while taking fines and payment which you ROB from base owners since you dont even try to protect the station after.
RE: Remove POB regulation double standards from rules - Laura C. - 09-12-2016
(09-12-2016, 11:43 AM)Jack_Henderson Wrote: Yes, double standards and somewhat not cool.Admins changed rules upon one or two incidents in Liberty and it definitely wasn´t about opinion how borderworlds should work, let´s not lie to ourself. Fact that some borderworlds are under protection and some not just confirms it, especially when you look at two almost same systems (Omega-3, Omega-7) which are for no good reason considered differently. It was solution which instead of applying on the situation(s) was applied in general. Result are weird and nonsense situations which are in fact crippling roleplay instead of enhancing it. This actually applies to more rules than just this one.
However, PoBs need protection against Houses that have just extended their influence too far into what is meant to be "not really controlled" space. You named the Omega connection that you would like to police properly, and that is not what it is meant to be. But we likely disagree there, and likely all House players would love the Borderworlds to just be "their space". The rule changes however support my version.
Anyway, it seems you did not read option two, which offers compromise regarding what is and what is not controlled. Or you want to claim that house lawfuls can´t control even areas directly around their bases or trade lanes/jump gates? Also like I said in the OP, if borderworlds are meant to be "not really controlled" space for lawfuls, then capital/sovereign house space should be in very same manner "not really controlled" space for unlawfuls. If Red Hessians have control over orbit of planet New Berlin, then Rheinland should by Hessianland by now.
(09-12-2016, 11:43 AM)Jack_Henderson Wrote: The examples you named defy logic, realism and likely do not even warrant the waste of time of a siege. One post should be enough to deal with it.Examples I made are obvious case scenario. However it does not change fact that anyone can set up a illegal drug/weapons selling base under formal veil of Freelancer trade shop next to police station and lawful players are forced by rules to pretend they don´t see it. Every time I tell this story to someone, he replies something like "But you said it is RP server, right? Doesn´t really sound so." Current rules are one of the reasons why we have "Discovery PvP with RP sugar coating 24/7" server now, because environment is far from anything what could be considered as serious roleplay.