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+--- Thread: Hellfire Legion (/showthread.php?tid=146970)
RE: Hellfire Legion - Backo - 01-13-2017
Personally I would love to see more lore as to how the Commonwealth formed and from where the people in it came and such. It looks like a cool idea, but in it's current state it kinda does have the taste of something that came out out of the blue.
RE: Hellfire Legion - Divine - 01-13-2017
(01-13-2017, 03:51 PM)Bloodl1ke Wrote: Personally I would love to see more lore as to how the Commonwealth formed and from where the people in it came and such. It looks like a cool idea, but in it's current state it kinda does have the taste of something that came out out of the blue.The issue with this is that someone has to write it. For that, the person writing it needs to've all the necessary insight. That's why most larger projects never get done, it's usually down to two, or worse, one to get the job done. Which in return means, hardly anything gets done in a suitable timeframe.
RE: Hellfire Legion - Hellfire Legion - 01-13-2017
(01-13-2017, 03:51 PM)Bloodl1ke Wrote: Personally I would love to see more lore as to how the Commonwealth formed and from where the people in it came and such. It looks like a cool idea, but in it's current state it kinda does have the taste of something that came out out of the blue.
I would too, followed pretty much word for word by Divine's caveat. The facstat rewrite should hopefully touch upon this a little, but I doubt it will provide either of us as much insight as we'd like to see.
At least I'm not totally alone with it, as @Petitioner has been a huge help over the past few months with this sort of thing.
Edit: Wrong acc, was doing promos.
RE: Hellfire Legion - Jansen - 01-13-2017
(01-13-2017, 03:24 PM)Durandal Wrote:(01-13-2017, 02:47 PM)Jansen Wrote: The faction in itself is ok, the big problem is that its suffocating other unlawfuls, just like the RHA used to in Rheinland in prevous Mod versions. The RHA issue is not as bad as it used to be, but the HF is essentially just building up a very similar situation, because if I can do something with a HF ID and lots of cool things, why do it with ID XYZ and crappy stuff?
I'm curious as to what exactly you think changed in regards to the RHA to precipitate the surge of activity that came from the Bundschuh and Unioners in recent years/months. From my perspective I don't see a lot having happened, and I'm pretty sure it was just because people more or less decided on a whim that they would like to try their hand at Bundie and Unioner roleplay.
Nothing changed in regards to the RHA, the other factions were adapted and got access to a few places where RHA could not go, got access to Cruisers and so on. The problems with the RH ID still being much better than the other faction are still there, but they are not as bad as they used to be.
(01-13-2017, 03:24 PM)Durandal Wrote:(01-13-2017, 02:47 PM)Jansen Wrote: That along with some rather questionable lore/roleplay evolutions in the last updates would make me wish to get it toned down to .85 levels in terms of 'power'. But who am I to dare questioning Dev decisions
When you refer to 'questionable lore/roleplay evolutions' I'm going to assume you're referring to the Commonwealth stuff, correct me if I'm wrong. I find this extremely curious since the main complaint with the Hellfire Legion as an entity back in the .85 era which you're lobbying for a return to was "this doesn't make any sense."
The development of the Commonwealth as a political entity backing the HF was done to add some semblance of sanity to the whole thing, as an independent military dedicated to toppling the government of an entire House is neither feasible in nor out of roleplay. People seem to think that it was done to give the HF more power, but in actuality it was to cement the HF more tangibly into the game's lore as a whole.
There are indeed a few things, for one the commonwealth, which suddenly appears and has some 100.000 inhabitants on a planet that is suddenly settled with that amount of people after previously being 'planned to be terraformed' because of a rather fancy mix of terrains, there is also the rather strange 'lets steal some parts of a jumpgate'-roleplay.
The fighting with Liberty has always been one of the core things of the HF, though back then it was a more guerilla like approach, with limited manpower and at least some roleplay that hinted this, instead of the open warfare you seem to proclaim now. This might make sense in the way you picture the HF to be, however, exactly this way does not make too much sense to me, as it just lacks the foundations. As mentioned previously, who am I to question these things, as the above is simply my opinion on how the HF should be, instead of how it is now.
RE: Hellfire Legion - Deep Space Engineering - 01-13-2017
As far as I am aware, we are trying to build an infrastructure base to help accommodate Hellfire's ideal of a nation. It mightn't make sense now but we are trying to make it legitimate with them.
We are merely offering the tools and the avenue, it's up to them how they use it.
RE: Hellfire Legion - Durandal - 01-13-2017
(01-13-2017, 05:44 PM)Jansen Wrote: Nothing changed in regards to the RHA, the other factions were adapted and got access to a few places where RHA could not go, got access to Cruisers and so on. The problems with the RH ID still being much better than the other faction are still there, but they are not as bad as they used to be.
I personally wouldn't mind seeing the Xenos get gunboats, etc, but I know a lot of people who would be extremely mad if that were to happen. There's also the issue of what the Xenos actually want themselves, I'd love to see Karst weigh in on this thread tbh.
All in all though you've got to admit that when you strip the lore and roleplay away, the gameplay of the Bundschuh and Hessians is essentially the same. On the contrary there's a marked difference in gameplay between the Legion and the Xenos, as pointed out by the whole piracy thing. The Xenos are content to rob civvies and flat out kill them if they're foreigners, which is quite a bit different from what we do.
In any event, for you to openly admit the appeal came from buffing Rheinland's smaller unlawful factions while targetting the HF for (supposedly) taking appeal away from playing Xenos, instead of lobbying for the Xenos to get more toys doesn't seem quite right to me.
(01-13-2017, 05:44 PM)Jansen Wrote: There are indeed a few things, for one the commonwealth, which suddenly appears and has some 100.000 inhabitants on a planet that is suddenly settled with that amount of people after previously being 'planned to be terraformed' because of a rather fancy mix of terrains,
I took a long time to think about this particular bit of critique. I'm not the one who came up with that number, but as a member of the story team as well as the faction's leader, there's little to no excuse for it to be there if I entirely disagreed with it. The truth is that populations are probably the hardest thing in Discovery's lore to balance, and Teerin has been doing a better job of that than anyone else previously with his giant, scary spreadsheets.
Liberty is a house of a little over 19 billion people. This is Discovery canon and no one may deny it. Let's do the math here and assume that the HF and Commonwealth combined is comprised of roughly ~150,000 souls planetside, onboard stations, and serving on ships. That's 0.0008 percent (rounded up!) of Liberty's total population. I, for one, do not believe that one ten thousandth of a House's population switching sides is wholy unreasonable, especially when you factor in the reasons that they might do so.
For one, the original battlegroup that defected with Drake Thastus consisted of several warships, and was originally intended as a deep space operation to purge the Lane Hackers from the independent worlds (or send uninfected Libertonian forces to their death, depending on who you ask). This would not have been a skeleton crew, and probably would've numbered roughly ~10,000 alone. Now you factor in their families who might have joined them following the discovery of a habitable - if mercurially tempered - world (something the other two factions the Hellfire Legion could be most closely compared to lack), ~25 years of propaganda directed towards Liberty's people, refugees from the Bretonian war front, and anyone who may have integrated simply because they were already living in the independent worlds, and this number suddenly becomes a lot less silly.
Especially when pitched against the Coalition's population of two million, who (claim) to want to do much the same thing as the Legion on a Sirius-wide scale.
(01-13-2017, 05:44 PM)Jansen Wrote: there is also the rather strange 'lets steal some parts of a jumpgate'-roleplay.
It really irks me how the fact that the jumpgate parts we looted were used as scrap metal is so often overlooked. The main point of legitimate criticism that even I have (remember, I wasn't leading the faction at the time nor involved with Discovery's development) with the roleplay that was done there, is that it was done without the inclusion of other relevant factions in the area such as Ageira, the Junkers, Rheinland unlawfuls, etc.
I do not, however, believe that invalidates a salvage operation for what was essentially no more than scrap. If we were actually attempting to reassemble and repair an entire jumpgate in Vespucci or something, that would be quite another story, and not something which anyone short of Ageira should be attempting alone.
(01-13-2017, 05:44 PM)Jansen Wrote: The fighting with Liberty has always been one of the core things of the HF, though back then it was a more guerilla like approach, with limited manpower and at least some roleplay that hinted this, instead of the open warfare you seem to proclaim now. This might make sense in the way you picture the HF to be, however, exactly this way does not make too much sense to me, as it just lacks the foundations. As mentioned previously, who am I to question these things, as the above is simply my opinion on how the HF should be, instead of how it is now.
This is a really interesting subject to touch on, and one that I intend to cover heavily in the faction status update. Essentially, you've got three factors all working against each other which are as follows:
1. How the Legion fights in-game in order to combat Lib lawfuls effectively.
2. How the Legion claims to fight in-lore.
3. How the Legion actually fights in-lore.
The first varies drastically on what is needed at any given time, though it tends to be a fairly homogeneous mixture of the open warfare we proclaim in lore and the guerilla tactics which you're espousing.
The second points towards a doctrine of direct, open warfare. The chest thumping proclamations of war that you may see the Commonwealth and Legion make however are just that - proclamations. People want to believe they're fighting for a strong, winning side with a solid backbone, with maybe even a touch of honor and chivalry mixed in.
The third is much more closer to how you believe the Legion should act, and I'm not adverse to getting some sort of roleplay going which reflects this a bit more accurately. It's part of the ugly underbelly of what the Legion really is. It's not the kind of thing people want to admit to. It doesn't evoke any sense of glory, justice, or strength, and a population of a little over a hundred thousand isn't something you amass by being entirely honest, even if the Legion is by and large a little too straight forward and idealistic for its own good.
RE: Hellfire Legion - Tabris - 01-13-2017
To be fair Kusari is kind of being pulled apart in a tug-of-war between Imperial Kusari and Republican Kusari. Naturally there will be alot of people sick of both parties and seek a 'third way'. *shrugs*
Quick Edit: We also can't forget the Dragons don't have their own planet under their control. So they don't have the space that Hellfire Legion could offer with it's own planet.
RE: Hellfire Legion - Petitioner - 01-13-2017
(01-13-2017, 08:59 PM)Durandal Wrote: ...one ten thousandth of a House's population switching sides is [not wholly] unreasonable, especially when you factor in the reasons that they might do so.
For one, the original battlegroup that defected ... probably would've numbered roughly ~10,000 alone. Now you factor in their families who might have joined them following the discovery of a habitable - if mercurially tempered - world (something the other two factions the Hellfire Legion could be most closely compared to lack), ~25 years of propaganda directed towards Liberty's people, refugees from the Bretonian war front, and anyone who may have integrated simply because they were already living in the independent worlds, and this number suddenly becomes a lot less silly.
Pls reading comprehension Shiki
RE: Hellfire Legion - 15 Small Woad - 01-13-2017
Xenos can pirate and that's their selling point? That's one incredibly crappy selling point. I can pirate on LH or Rogues and have an easier time doing it as well.
Lobby for more Xeno toys? How about we stop buffing the hell out of every faction and giving them everything possible to balance it out. Some factions would prefer not having fleets of ships to just throw out whenever they choose. Xenos are supposed to be one of the poorest factions in Sirius but now to balance it out, let's give them gunboats. And sure we can say after all this time, they have made money and can now afford to do this. But the economy in Disco is terrible. It would take 1 month for a faction to make enough money to field a small fleet.
You shouldn't try base your faction lore on how you play the game but how it would fit into this universe. Liberty just sitting by while you casually amass a small army on their doorstep seems crazy. This commonwealth that Xenos accept as a legitimate state? If they did, they wouldn't even exist anymore because the whole movement is about them trying to make a better Liberty. Why bother fighting some crazy movement (That seemed silly before your faction came along) when you can just join this commonwealth that IS exactly what you fight for.
Hellfire is growing too big, too easily. No opposition because you are just making it up as you go along.
The biggest issue is like I said, Xenos have no reason to be a thing with you around. You have to be insane to look at your closest allies who are literally making their own Liberty and not join them. Especially when that is one of the very reasons you existed in the first place. But hey, "We can pirate."
It's easy to focus on your faction and only lightly touch on how it affects everyone around you. But that doesn't mean that what you are doing all makes sense and fits in with everyone else around you.
Xenos are great and I expect them to soon do some interesting things to breathe life into their faction. Things that make sense inRP. They do not need buffing in any way. You need to be toned down to stop this insane level of power growth in a world where you are facing those same 19 billion people in Liberty. (Some switched sides right? I am pretty sure, a lot will hate you with a vengeance after all the lawfuls you have killed too)
But anyway, nothing will change, what I say will be shrugged at and ultimately the devs in this faction will do what they feel is best. Only once they stop and leave the faction will people have a say and then it will possibly be toned down to fit in a bit better. This sort of RP is terrible. You are whatever you decide you want to be basically and do whatever you want. While other factions from vanilla follow similar paths to what they had been before which stops them from becoming superpowers.
RE: Hellfire Legion - Durandal - 01-13-2017
(01-13-2017, 10:51 PM)15 Small Woad Wrote: Xenos can pirate and that's their selling point? That's one incredibly crappy selling point. I can pirate on LH or Rogues and have an easier time doing it as well.
For anyone who wants to play on that particular side of the political spectrum in Liberty, yes it is.
(01-13-2017, 10:51 PM)15 Small Woad Wrote: Lobby for more Xeno toys? How about we stop buffing the hell out of every faction and giving them everything possible to balance it out. Some factions would prefer not having fleets of ships to just throw out whenever they choose. Xenos are supposed to be one of the poorest factions in Sirius but now to balance it out, let's give them gunboats. And sure we can say after all this time, they have made money and can now afford to do this. But the economy in Disco is terrible. It would take 1 month for a faction to make enough money to field a small fleet.
I said I was okay with that I idea, not that it's ideal or something I want to see. The entire idea of 'balancing' factions seems pretty stupid to me. A faction is what it is, and people really aren't as biased towards playing the biggest boys with the biggest toys on the block as people seem to think.
(01-13-2017, 10:51 PM)15 Small Woad Wrote: You shouldn't try base your faction lore on how you play the game but how it would fit into this universe. Liberty just sitting by while you casually amass a small army on their doorstep seems crazy. This commonwealth that Xenos accept as a legitimate state? If they did, they wouldn't even exist anymore because the whole movement is about them trying to make a better Liberty. Why bother fighting some crazy movement (That seemed silly before your faction came along) when you can just join this commonwealth that IS exactly what you fight for.
Well, that's an interesting perspective and the only thing I can really counter that statement with is a little thing called nationalism. I really doubt these people whose families have spent all their lives in Colorado would rather pack up and leave their home than fight for it.
(01-13-2017, 10:51 PM)15 Small Woad Wrote: Hellfire is growing too big, too easily. No opposition because you are just making it up as you go along.
Everything, including the Xenos own lore, is being made up as we go along. That's the entire point of having an active and dynamic roleplay environment. I'm really interested in your definition of opposition though. What opposition, perceived or otherwise, are the Xenos facing that the Legion is not? It's hardly my fault that the growth of one of these movements can be reflected by giving them a base or two (because up until now they had none outside of Vespucci) or larger ships while the other cannot, if you want to maintain the status quo of the Xenos being a small and poor movement, which you apparently do?
You've just said that you believe the Xenos should remain a small, poor, and relatively asset poor movement, but do you have any interest in playing a Legionnaire? From the tone of your post I doubt it, which says there must obviously be some appeal to playing a Xeno despite the obvious drawbacks you want them to maintain.
(01-13-2017, 10:51 PM)15 Small Woad Wrote: The biggest issue is like I said, Xenos have no reason to be a thing with you around. You have to be insane to look at your closest allies who are literally making their own Liberty and not join them. Especially when that is one of the very reasons you existed in the first place. But hey, "We can pirate."
See above.
(01-13-2017, 10:51 PM)15 Small Woad Wrote: It's easy to focus on your faction and only lightly touch on how it affects everyone around you. But that doesn't mean that what you are doing all makes sense and fits in with everyone else around you.
If you really think that's what's going on here then you're extremely out of touch. The story team contributes equally to the development of every faction, from input from their respective faction leaders. I actually do almost nothing in regards to writing the overarching story of the Hellfire Legion because there is a very obvious conflict of interest. Most of my involvement in any lore-relevant writing that happens for the faction is clarification to the rest of the devteam on their motives, history, or other intrinsic properties of the faction while letting the rest of the guys work with them.
(01-13-2017, 10:51 PM)15 Small Woad Wrote: Xenos are great and I expect them to soon do some interesting things to breathe life into their faction. Things that make sense inRP. They do not need buffing in any way. You need to be toned down to stop this insane level of power growth in a world where you are facing those same 19 billion people in Liberty. (Some switched sides right? I am pretty sure, a lot will hate you with a vengeance after all the lawfuls you have killed too)
I suppose you feel the same way about the Hessians, the Blood Dragons, and the Council in comparison to the Bundschuh, Chrysanthemums, and Maquis? I think your arbitrary downtoning is a moot point with the level of fiery and passionate rhetoric you're obviously willing to publish here. Your interest in flying a Xeno has clearly not been diminished, and surely the mod would be a much less interesting place were the lore focused entirely on balance and less on a complex geopolitical environment?
(01-13-2017, 10:51 PM)15 Small Woad Wrote: But anyway, nothing will change, what I say will be shrugged at and ultimately the devs in this faction will do what they feel is best. Only once they stop and leave the faction will people have a say and then it will possibly be toned down to fit in a bit better. This sort of RP is terrible. You are whatever you decide you want to be basically and do whatever you want. While other factions from vanilla follow similar paths to what they had been before which stops them from becoming superpowers.
Thanks for making assumptions without knowing a thing about me, I cannot tell you how much I appreciate that from the bottom of my heart. Thanks again for ignoring how the Hessians have conquered an entire system, the Dragons are invading Nagano, the liberal side of Kusari won out over the conservatives of vanilla, and the Outcasts and Corsairs have developed warships.
This mod is most certainly not stuck in limbo, but I think you very well might be.