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+--- Thread: POBs + Mining system = broken mechanic. (/showthread.php?tid=159287)
RE: POBs + Mining system = broken mechanic. - Hammerhead - 03-21-2018
(03-21-2018, 10:09 AM)sindroms Wrote: I do not agree with the fact that old pobs should be exempt to rule changes.
That is the same sort of nonsense as if saying that I should be able to continue abusing game exploits, just because I used to abuse them before they were clearly marked as such by the server rules.
If the current POB mechanic harms server gameplay, all POBs should fall under server rule changes. Old and new.
"IF" is a big word here Sindrom. Is it really broken or is there a changing dynamic that some people do not like? The best rule you mention is to allow illegal bases to be destroyed without an attack declaration. But they have to be illegal bases not applied for/approved by the Houses that have jurisdiction over such matters.
I would say there is the opportunity in this changing dynamic to add variety to various role play styles. But I agree if an unsanctioned (illegal) base pops up in a minefield then pull out that weed. But be mindful not all POB "plants" are weeds.
RE: POBs + Mining system = broken mechanic. - Laura C. - 03-21-2018
Number two is not solving much, because people who are spamming core 1 bases in mining fields do not care if their bases are removed. I assume they are fine that the base will live only for the one day (or weekend) gaming session. Then they just build another one next time they log, because they know lawfuls can´t patrol all the mining fields 24/7.
RE: POBs + Mining system = broken mechanic. - sindroms - 03-21-2018
(03-21-2018, 10:21 AM)Inquest2 Wrote:(03-21-2018, 10:09 AM)sindroms Wrote: I do not agree with the fact that old pobs should be exempt to rule changes.
That is the same sort of nonsense as if saying that I should be able to continue abusing game exploits, just because I used to abuse them before they were clearly marked as such by the server rules.
If the current POB mechanic harms server gameplay, all POBs should fall under server rule changes. Old and new.
"IF" is a big word here Sindrom. Is it really broken or is there a changing dynamic that some people do not like? The best rule you mention is to allow illegal bases to be destroyed without an attack declaration. But they have to be illegal bases not applied for/approved by the Houses that have jurisdiction over such matters.
I would say there is the opportunity in this changing dynamic to add variety to various role play styles. But I agree if an unsanctioned (illegal) base pops up in a minefield then pull out that weed. But be mindful not all POB "plants" are weeds.
We are not talking about roleplay laws. We are talking about how the presence of a POB interacts with the original intent of the mining mechanic and miner-pirate interaction from a game mechanics standpoint. I have no idea why are you pulling roleplay laws into this.
RE: POBs + Mining system = broken mechanic. - sindroms - 03-21-2018
(03-21-2018, 10:19 AM)Thyrzul Wrote:Sadly estimates aren't measurements, and incorrect estimates could then get you sanctioned for sieging a base without a declaration thread, because you thought it is close enough to the field for that, while it wasn't (or at least admins estimated it wasn't). Vagueness like this poses the risk of getting people, even those acting in good will, into trouble, needlessly.
True, but the laws need to be based on existing game mechanics. Leeway can be given in certain situations. If we set the range to 20k, an admin undocks from the POB, places a waypoint to the edge of the mining field and sees that it is 19k, you really need to be in a bad mood to start screwing with the base ini file to move it 1k.
RE: POBs + Mining system = broken mechanic. - Thyrzul - 03-21-2018
@"Inquest2"
Base mechanics are in fact broken, and that can be backed with plenty of numbers and math, but I disagree with going straight for rules because of bad mechanics, before checking whether they can be fixed or not. I'm certain it can be, I explained how, and I had talks with Justin and Karst about it in the past. I'm still waiting for information regarding progress on that from the balance team (Karst disappeared since then).
Base mechanics are in fact broken, and that can be backed with plenty of numbers and math, but I disagree with going straight for rules because of bad mechanics, before checking whether they can be fixed or not. I'm certain it can be, I explained how, and I had talks with Justin and Karst about it in the past. I'm still waiting for information regarding progress on that from the balance team (Karst disappeared since then).
RE: POBs + Mining system = broken mechanic. - Enkidu - 03-21-2018
(03-21-2018, 10:21 AM)Inquest2 Wrote:(03-21-2018, 10:09 AM)sindroms Wrote: I do not agree with the fact that old pobs should be exempt to rule changes.
That is the same sort of nonsense as if saying that I should be able to continue abusing game exploits, just because I used to abuse them before they were clearly marked as such by the server rules.
If the current POB mechanic harms server gameplay, all POBs should fall under server rule changes. Old and new.
"IF" is a big word here Sindrom. Is it really broken or is there a changing dynamic that some people do not like? The best rule you mention is to allow illegal bases to be destroyed without an attack declaration. But they have to be illegal bases not applied for/approved by the Houses that have jurisdiction over such matters.
I would say there is the opportunity in this changing dynamic to add variety to various role play styles. But I agree if an unsanctioned (illegal) base pops up in a minefield then pull out that weed. But be mindful not all POB "plants" are weeds.
What about us unlawful POB owners?
RE: POBs + Mining system = broken mechanic. - Hammerhead - 03-21-2018
(03-21-2018, 10:23 AM)Laura C. Wrote: Number two is not solving much, because people who are spamming core 1 bases in mining fields do not care if their bases are removed. I assume they are fine that the base will live only for the one day (or weekend) gaming session. Then they just build another one next time they log, because they know lawfuls can´t patrol all the mining fields 24/7.
Absolutely right Laura. This issue is the primary one where abuse of the need to post a declaration that may take days to action and enforce. If the base is illegal and unsanctioned then give people the ability to KOS it.
And nothing is going to change that except if the use of an illegal base in a mind field by players in ships was sanctionable.
There is scope to adjust to a changing dynamic that has increased RP interaction many players attest to.
RE: POBs + Mining system = broken mechanic. - Pepe - 03-21-2018
Mining factions will keep dying as long as there are PoBs in the same system where ore is. Not having a mining faction in every house is a big shame imho, as most of them were schools to Disco and good gameplay.
Additionally, selling ore to any PoB should be a faction perk.
RE: POBs + Mining system = broken mechanic. - sindroms - 03-21-2018
In a perfect world, you shouldn't be able to sell ore to POBs.
RE: POBs + Mining system = broken mechanic. - ronillon - 03-21-2018
(03-21-2018, 08:48 AM)sindroms Wrote: 1. We outright forbid making POBs an X distance from any given mining field, regardless of core level. Any existing POB is either moved or refunded to the owner/s.
2. We remove the attack deceleration requirements from bases inside of mining fields, allowing anyone to destroy such new bases on a whim. Any existing POB is either moved or refunded to the owner/s.
3. If players start whining about their property - move the field instead. Any existing POB is either moved or refunded to the owner/s.
I'm not sure, what point 3 actually means, but if you make an existing POB illegal and vulnerable all of the sudden, the owner should be compensated.
Regarding measuring the distance from mining fields: not always are mining zones placed on plain, sometimes they are 15-20k under/above the plain. The central node with field size info would be very helpful.
(03-21-2018, 10:23 AM)Laura C. Wrote: Number two is not solving much, because people who are spamming core 1 bases in mining fields do not care if their bases are removed. I assume they are fine that the base will live only for the one day (or weekend) gaming session. Then they just build another one next time they log, because they know lawfuls can´t patrol all the mining fields 24/7.
This brings back memories: When I initially planted my own mining POB, I thought it will last only 5hours, without any maintenance. (Looks like I did the math wrong, and freshly spawned POB stayed there for 10hours.) During that time, it attracted so many people, that it is still there today, 1.5years later, mainly maintained and funded by those, who mine and trade there.
People spam POBs, because it is logical thing to do.
Spawning Core1 POB is dirty cheap: 202.500 S.C. and it lasts 10+ hours without ANY maintenance. While it provides docking point and protection. This is enough for one mining session, where you can make roughly 200-500M S.C.
Solution: Increase the price of POB deployment. Create a new high price commodity, that would be required for building POB. Make it cost 10-50M credits, that should decrease the spam significantly.
(03-21-2018, 10:39 AM)sindroms Wrote: In a perfect world, you shouldn't be able to sell ore to POBs.We are lucky not to live in perfect world then.
EDIT:
I still disagree with the notion, that POBs in mining fields are killing interaction. I think it is actually the opposite. Dont know about pirates, because I do not play one, but it sure attracts a lot of miners and haulers. The fact, that you can dock on POB INSIDE mining zone also means, that when you undock, there is a high chance, that you see someone else there. Be it miner slowly mining into POB, or hauler waiting for miners to show up.
If the POB was 15k away from mining zone, it would mean that your potential customer or miner for hire would be 15-30k away from you. But you would not know if they are indeed there or not, unless you flew there and check for yourself. If there is no one there, what you do? Fly those 30k back to POB and dock again? So you have just spent 5 minutes by checking if there is a player you could interact with.
From this angle, POBs 15k from mining field are killing player interaction.
Regarding those pirates, like I said, I do not play one, but shouldnt they prey on haulers instead of miners? No matter where the mining POB is, or whether there is a POB at all, once the ore is mined, it needs to be hauled to sellpoint. That should be the place and time pirates should strike.
Also, shouldnt a miner under fire docking on POB be PvP dead? Also if POB has shield, pirate can deny docking by activating it by single shot.
I always meet more players near mining POB, than when hauling the ore to sellpoint or trading in general. It IS an ACTIVITY HUB.